the problem with fighters is that they are limited to 2 players -4 in some cases-, so in contrast to other genres there is not much you can do with skill gap. In team oriented games, usually a group consists of some good players and some with lower skills. so if a lower skilled player messes up, a better player can make up for those mistakes , give you advice on the fly and so you can learn from it. But on a fighter you are usually on your own. it is more brutal and discouraging for a new player to get beaten up constantly.
So I wouldnt say there are bad players, just those who are not cut for fighting games. But I have to admit that the standards were raised considerably. Everyone tries to copy and learn things that took years to master, in a few months. Failure to do so will make you a bad player. That is not the case at all. Just play the game how you like. no need for pressure of failure.
Breakers Revenge is certainly one of the easier fighters, but it requires you to know some basics beforehand.
if you are a beginner and BR is your first entry into fighting games and you become good at it, prepare to be dissapointed if you delve into foreing territory. Consider it like a light version of Real Bout Fatal Fury or Garou. it helps in building strategy but spoils you at execution.
[quote=“ilitirit, post:118, topic:158921”]
[quote=“tataki, post:117, topic:158921”]
before Mortal Kombat and SF, the most popular and perhaps violent fighting game, in Europe at least, was this:
a precursor of Weapon Lord. there wasnt a teen or child who hadnt played that game, even though it was released only for computers.
Getting sales with fanservice and catering to current trends= Developer’s problems. Making the player base smarter= Community’s problem. If the “gateway” titles only cause people to want to stay at the gate forever, (Or in the case of stream monsters, experience the games only in the worst, shallowest way possible – watching instead of playing) then clearly we are not doing our part well enough.
And it DOES have a negative effect on the existing player base. Because the experience of playing a good game is now of secondary importance as the focus shifts to external motives such as money and fame.
Like people have said before, you’re complaining about the wrong thing. If anything, complain about FRC’s activation window. As people have explained before, if you use the IAD “shortcut”, air dashes become stupidly easy and feel extremely “natural”. If you sat down and played any ASW fighter and actually tried to use IADs, you’ll want to smack yourself for thinking that air dashes were “difficult” to use.
That thing about “the GG player who thinks that air dashes being easier and that too many people being proficient with air dashes is a bad thing” is just hilarious. First of all, air dashing can’t get ANY easier if you know how to IAD. IAD is a basic technique and should be one of the first things that a potential air dashing game player should learn. Secondly, does that guy not want more players to learn how to play the damn game? Does he have some sort of elitist complex? lmao
Back to the actual topic, I think that easier fighting games are both a good thing and a bad thing. Back to GG, the FRC’s execution barrier really puts me off from trying to really get into the game. FRCs are a necessary mechanic that you must learn in order to be proficient in that game yet it’s such a goddamn difficult mechanic to master.
The more recent ASW (BB, P4A) games have implemented the “5 frame buffer window” (if you hold a button, it’ll “repeat” itself for the next 4Fs) for moves. So even if you stumble upon a combo that requires a 1-3 frame link, you can just use the 5F buffer system to make it doable. That shit really helps, makes things more “fluid”.
My only gripe with P4A is the universal, 2-button DP system and the ability to super cancel DPs. This is the first FG that I’ve played in which every character has access to a non-meter reversal. Because the DP can be performed with 2 buttons (or 1 if using macros), most people just mash that shit like idiots, even though it will cost them half of their life if it gets baited. Then what really gets to me is that if you try to punish the DP, some characters can super cancel the DP into another fucking 1F, I-F move. So there’s a lot of guessing going on there. Do you look for the DP and give up your reset/pressure/mix-up options? Do you move in to punish the DP and risk getting hit by the super cancel? If you don’t move in to try and punish it, they just got out for free. What do?
My point being is that sometimes a good and easy thing, can turn into a bad thing. Now that’s just my opinion but people become too reliant on that easy-mode DP. Sure bait it and punish it but then you have to guess once more whether you should punish it or not. Look at this match between a guy who has been playing the game for far longer than I have and my day 5 Yukiko:
DPs, DPs fucking everywhere. Then I went online and played for a bit and went 50-0 because people just love to mash DPs in every single situation. This is with my scrubby, 5 day Yukiko mind you. So if I want competition, I actually have to look for it. The game that was supposed to cater to a wider audience just killed a bunch of potential players by letting them abuse the DP system thinking that DPs are the best thing ever.
Complicates balance, and is argubly if it actually makes a game deeper as it frequently ends up being a game of counterpicking mechanics
Really KoF 98 has two systems.
How is it EX is winning against the top tier?
The new characters in UMvC3 and SFxT all had interesting move set, how do you define “interesting” move set anyway? Obviously it’s going to be harder to come out with unique moves in fighting games as more and more moves get made
What I mean is everyone plays differently and have multiple ways of being played look at Guilty Gear, Vsav, even Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure.
Makes movement in fighting games a lot deeper and harder to master
Really one of tge first thing modders did to sf4 was to edit it’s slow walk speed.
Limits the power of supers so that you have to be more strategic with its use. Ultras in SF4 would be more imbalance if you have to fight against both anti air ultras AND ultras that are easy to combo into
I can argue it allows the character to be more open.
None of the current games depend on 1 frame links to “make a player good” either. 1 frame links are not something new in fighting games
Only a few of the old capcom games had 1 frame links as the turbo used in most fighters made it impossible.
List of Capcom Fighters that didn’t have turbo
SF2 WW
SF2 CE
SSF2
SF3 series
Warzard
Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure
Old fighting games have retarded hit boxes too
Show me one I can guarantee that I can find a normal in UMvC3 that is worse even if you get it from the older marvel games.
Actually some FRCs are way easier than others, and most of the cast can do just fine without using the harder FRCs. Like for example Eddie’s H drill FRC (which is easy) is a must, but he doesn’t really need the rest of his FRCs.
As I said in my previous post, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. Even if you do manage to “educate” players, you can’t force them to play games they don’t want to. And even if they just decide they’re going to stop supporting new developments, what do you think is going to happen? Companies will just stop making FGs. You’ll have to rely on smaller studios and indie developers, which is fine except that these guys tend to cater to niche markets, and they don’t seem to care if 90% of the community just don’t find little girls in french maid outfits appealing.
And besides, it’s not just the perceived quality of the games. Accessibility also plays a major factor. If a new player can’t easily find people to play with from the comfort of his home, they’re just not going to play. Or even if they have a solid offline scene for 1 mainstream game, there’s no guarantee that anyone else out there is going to want to play their 10+ year old favourite.
To complain about that is like pissing in the wind. People just have to learn to deal with it. What can they really do about it besides moan on forums? Do you really expect top players to drop whatever their main game is right now to go back to stuff that only a handful in the community play, especially where there’s no monetary incentive? Many of these guys have quit their day jobs to become Pro Gamers (and lets not kid ourselves here: money has been a part of the scene for a very long time now). The bulk of the community will follow the top players. The top players will follow the money and competition. This is how every competitive scene works. Players can either try to adapt in some way or another, or maintain the status quo and continue to play the games they like albeit in smaller circles. Either choice is fine, but to complain about it is very silly IMO.
Priority engine doesn’t really end up mattering that much. 3s doesn’t have that many situations where normals would trade. I know several people from around these parts have mentioned it as something they don’t like in 3s but it’s a theory 3s problem and not an actual 3s problem I think. Chun’s back fierce isn’t godlike because of the priority system, it’s amazing because it’s a ridiculous hit box that stays out in front of her forever.
Yeah, Dizzy’s 2H FRC is a lot easier than Ice Spike FRC. The thing is that Ice Spike FRC has a lot of combo potential. I guess I should just give it another go and see if I can master the timings with experience lol.
Has anybody defined exactly what an “easy” fighter is? Or at the very least list the games that are considered to be this and explain specifically why they’re “easier”?
Only after doing this can we have any fruitful discussion whether or not it’s a good or bad thing.
Otherwise we’ll continue to have meaningless debates about air-dashing execution difficulty. :-@
I’m not saying anything could or should be done, I’m just describing the situation. When the FG trend will pass many of the people will vanish because nothing was done to turn them into more than just passers-by.
I don’t think the solution will come from within the main community because people are lazy by nature and thus have no incentive to think about the future and work hard for it when you can just sit and chill and get the immediate benefits, but I do think that other communities will take up a bigger corner in the scene now, if they maintain the old mentality, because there’s still demand for it.
And no, money cannot be a real incentive. At the end of the day many of us still travel to play for the love of playing the game, even if we aren’t going to win a huge pot and cover the travel expenses.
But doesn’t the priority system simply add another advantage to it that it wouldn’t normally have in any other case? I mean, sure it’s not the sole thing that makes Chun top tier in 3S, but it does make you think about what would happen if a similar system was applied in other games.
<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/6256/Hyper%20Inferno">Hyper Inferno</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>
<blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/7004/Hecatom">Hecatom</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/8034918#Comment_8034918" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>
<blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/6256/Hyper%20Inferno">Hyper Inferno</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/8034624#Comment_8034624" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>
<blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/47620/scytheavatar">scytheavatar</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/8034551#Comment_8034551" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><br />
Other than projectile invulnerability in UMvC3 I can’t think of any "“priority engine” on attacks in recent fighters. And what’s wrong with priority engine?<br />
</div>
</blockquote>
<br />
Blazblue uses a priority engine where some moves are tagged with head/body/foot attributes that can determine priority.<br />
</div>
</blockquote>
<br />
You mean like low, mid, over head attacks?</div>
</blockquote>
<br />
I mean actual flat out priority. From a dustloop thread on Blazblue’s priority system:<br />
<blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Attack Attributes: Attacks have different classes: Head, Body and Foot. This creates more possiblities of interactions of different moves. For example, some characters’ → + A has head attribute invincibility, which is guaranteed to beat most jump attacks that only have head attribute, but it can easily lose to standing jabs that have both head and body attribute. Another example would be Jin → + B, which has foot attribute invincibility. Since crouching jabs generally have foot attribute only, those attack always lose to Jin’s → + B.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
That’s not really a priority system. More of a series of general attack attributes that, as the thread states, allow for greater freedom and variety in move interactions.
Did someone really say GG Oki wasn’t as strong as people made it out to be? God damn it hold my poodle son.
I’ve played GG for years on years on and off (Watch out badass etc) And I’ll be real when I say GG Oki is not something you fuck with in the slightest. Being knocked down against Eddie, Potemkin, Dizzy and pretty much anyone else is a really big deal. Until you’ve been knocked down in the corner against a Summoned Eddie your opinions don’t mean shit. (Command Grab, Triple unblockables, Overhead, Low, Crossups and reflectors son)
Anyway-
Easy fighters. I consider easy fighters to be games like Marvel, BB and heck. Maybe even AE. They don’t require a strong level of fundamentals / general knowledge to pick up and play. But dear lord they do if you want to be good at them.
So in a sense. Any game is easy at a beginners level, but if we’re talking about Mid level games that are easy then it becomes entirely different. It’s not always a bad thing to be an easy game, but losing to someone because of randomness / comeback factors / getting hit once into a ToD (Yo marvel) sucks when you know you’re the generally better player.
I think a problem with some fighting games is that they are easy for the wrong reasons.
I find input shortcuts and simple comeback mechanics completely unnecessary. SF4 tried to dumb down things, but kept 1-frame links and some tough combo timing. I think they got that wrong.
Techniques like plinking or double tapping are necessary in a lot fighting games. I honestly don’t think they should be. I can’t think of a single game that explains these techniques to casual players. Instead they give us unnecessary shortcuts, auto guard, and easy comeback mechanics. I don’t think this helping players to improve at all.
I think the basic formula is: easy to get into; difficult to master. This is fine with me, but I think some games are making things easy that new players don’t really need to be easy. I’d much rather see extremely difficult links go away than some silly shortcut for a special move being added.
Rather than games being dumbed down, I’d like to see some stronger tutorials aimed towards newer players. Some games have attempted this, but I’d like to see more of it. Links and Chains are at the heart of most 2D fighters. It took me years in arcades (w/help from others) to figure that stuff out. This is stuff that should be explained in every single fighting game tutorial, but it rarely ever is. There needs to be tutorials that explain the difference between types of combos and give examples of timing and rhythm. I’d also like to see more fundamentals (defense, footsies, block strings, overheads) explained.
Players feel a sense of satisfaction when they can accomplish some of the basics. The problem is, these games never teach the basics.
I don’t understand why people complain about input shortcuts. That’s one of the least offensive things the new gen fighting games have brought. So long as the shortcuts aren’t making you get shit you didn’t mean to get, who cares. I really don’t think it’s a problem that someone gets an uppercut when he means to get an uppercut.
Comeback mechanics, slow walk speed, braindead good reversals, these are actual issues that have made fighting games less interesting.
Eh, I don’t know about input shortcuts. I think they’ve coddled people for the most part. If you can’t do an SRK and need to mash downfoward to do it then just quit. Or just migrate over to charge characters or grapplers.
The only input I don’t like is the 360. I can do it normally (on jump in or wakeup) and I can do the Half Circle then Up shortcut. But I just don’t like the 360 motion based on principle. Why not just make it a Half Circle Motion? I mean, if the devs seem to be that worried that the move does so much damage and might be spammable then make it really easy to punish on whiff or give it less range. Which doesn’t make any sense when you consider double QCF supers which are even easier to do and tend to do tons of damage. So, I don’t get it.
I don’t mean to complain about input shortcuts as much as I’m saying I wish game devs would spend effort on something new players actually need. I don’t consider input shortcuts a priority for new players.