of course…but I like challenging combos and I dont think they should be removed </div>
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The problem is when they begin to dominate the meta-game. Sure you can say that they support the neutral game by providing a “threat” to not get hit, but at that point it starts to feel more like an artificial barrier to access the game at its most competitive.</div>
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but when a game has easy entry level controls and such (see: MvC2) and players elevate it to a higher level, it’s not the games fault</div>
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<font face=“Arial, Verdana” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>F/UC has fairly easy entry level controls, but some of the combos in that game are incredibly long and it isn’t rare for them to get up to 100%. It is the game’s fault that those combos are allowed to exist, and because of that, there’s a huge level of practice required to play the game competitively. That’s why many games have safety nets to make sure that landing a single hit isn’t determinative of an entire match through stuff like hit-stun deterioration, high damage scaling, gravity, IPS, or x times-per-combo rules (wallslam, groundbounce, OTGs). MvC2 escapes this problem because of the 50-hit infinite prevention thing and a high emphasis on resets instead of 20 second combos.</span></font></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><font size=“2”>Execution and practice should be rewarded up to a point (otherwise a game goes stale fast), but since fighting games at their nature are still interactive games, it’s important to either cap the rewards of execution so the game doesn’t become a rhythm game whenever someone gets hit, or said rhythm game ends in like 5 seconds so that players can get back to fighting each other.</font></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><font size=“2”><br></font></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><font size=“2”>Edit: Here’s a video showing what I mean by FUC’s problems with long combos:</font></div><div><font size=“2”><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0GZoyqHwQM8#t=3770s</span></font></font></div><div><font size=“2”><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></font></div><div><font size=“2”><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Edit edit: It’s at 1:02:50. The embedded video doesn’t skip to the proper time.</span></font></font></div></div>
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isn’t that luvia grab a techable hit-throw? or ony when used out of combos?
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/24638/OneSanitarium">OneSanitarium</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>FD stopping takes meter, and IIRC there’s a window of time after using FD that you don’t gain tension. There is still a trade off.</div>
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Yeah I know it takes meter, but it’s just that it takes such a small amount that it’ll pretty much just take the tiny amount you gained from moving forward to begin with.
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/22597/rayplay">rayplay</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/24638/OneSanitarium">OneSanitarium</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>FD stopping takes meter, and IIRC there’s a window of time after using FD that you don’t gain tension. There is still a trade off.</div>
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Yeah I know it takes meter, but it’s just that it takes such a small amount that it’ll pretty much just take the tiny amount you gained from moving forward to begin with. </div>
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<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>From the DL wiki:</span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>"</span></font><font face=“sans-serif” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 19.1875px;”>After using FD, Tension gain is decreased by 80% for 1 full second after the FD stops."</span></font></div><div><font face=“sans-serif” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 19.1875px;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“sans-serif” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 19.1875px;”>I know it isn’t much, and you’re guaranteed a FD stop after moving forward at all, but it’s still something you’re sacrificing.</span></font></div>
If dash breaking was free, you could abuse the system that rewards you for moving forward to safely gain meter for just moving back and forth. So you won’t lose meter by dash breaking in footsies, which will allow you move around without cost, but you will also not GAIN meter for it. The developers made sure that only Potemkin is allowed to 64646464 his way to meter because he spends most of his time trying to bypass keepaway instead of pressing buttons.
The last thing I want is to enter training mode with absolutely nothing to learn or practice. Imagine if the best combo in the game was something ridiculously easy like ABC-Launch, that stuff would bore me super quick.
Depends on whether you like the game or not. It shouldn’t matter how “easy” it seems, if you enjoy it, then it can’t be a “bad” thing. If you find value in the continuous play of a fighter, it must be doing the most important shit right.
That’s the whole point of video games, at least it use to be. That’s just how I see it. It’s funny cuz I always thought Rival Schools was, literally, the perfect gateway fighter.
Easy fighters would be fine if done the right way.
I actually think MvC2 is probably the perfect fighting game in terms of appeal and difficulty. At lower levels, there’s enough stuff you can do fairly easily that looks cool and is effective. But you get higher up and there’s plenty of really difficult stuff to be had. Plus everyone knows those characters and that makes it an easy sell.
Trivial and easily fixed. Make the “auto stop” consume meter the same way FD braking does. Problem solved, extraneous inputs eliminated.
I find GG players like to have their cake and eat it too. “GG is so technical and hard, compared to all these new, easy games! 1 frame throw reject window! Real oki! FRCs that have to be done down to the frame! But it’s still super approacha-hey wait come back!!!” Seriously. I hear SO MANY people talking up how “hard” GG is compared to other games, and then you get GG “apologists” in who say stuff like “Oh well, except for all those things, it’s really easy.”
…
Also, how does Dangerous Oki " It turns every moment in the match into a more important one."? Actually, it makes most of the moments in the match into a sucky guessing game. How is a game where one mistake leads to a knockdown which leads to an unreactable 50/50 guess to avoid being in the same situation again more “nuanced” than a game that requires you to beat your opponent in a fair footsies battle to score damage?
That could work provided there isn’t a contradiction that would arise from the system change.
It’s not even that most of the things raise the difficulty to absurd levels. There was like a slight hurdle that any game I ever played took, but I was pretty fine afterwards, but what do I know, I’m just one person. People say the same shit about other games too.
There’s just as much of that as there is the oki game.
So you want to remove the normal dash stop from the game, reducing the options, because you think that pressing 2 buttons is too much work in a fighting game? Throws in GG are one button and EX moves are one button, while in SF4 they are two. Doesn’t this balance out for your button pressing capacity?
And I find that people like you like to misquote and twist words as they see fit. A character like Slayer is hard in the technical sense. Other characters are way easier. How is it different from any other fighting game?
If a knockdown leads to a huge disadvantage and a dangerous situation, it means that moment you got hit at neutral has more severe consequences. It also adds more depth because moves’ rewards are not measured just by damage but also by the better or worse momentum they give. Also calling it “one mistake leads to a knockdown which leads to an unreactable 50/50 guess” is wrong because GG’s oki is never this simple. When do you get a pure 50-50 with Sol? When you knocked them down in the corner, and you have 25% meter, and they don’t have enough meter to DAA, and that’s before the unique defensive options. Like what about Ky who can DP->Javelin FRC or Baiken who can just alpha counter, or Anji who can fuujin through, or a Zappa with the Dog or a Testament who made sure to set up a net above which will screw up your jump or a tree where you land or a Jam who can parry etc. etc. etc.
Maybe you should try, you know, actually playing the game and understanding it before you complain about it. Maybe then you’ll see that pressing 2 buttons isn’t that bad.
No, I want to remove it because, as represented here, it not something you ever want to use. Options that exist solely to punish the player for not using them are bad design.
So basically what you’re saying is that GG oki isn’t as strong as GG players like to make it out to be when they’re talking about how strong oki makes the game awesome? Or maybe that it’s only not that strong when you need to use an example to make it look not strong?
I’m still not convinced that “rewarding” someone for winning footsies by giving them a big advantage on the next exchange is good, because you know, they’ve already been rewarded for winning footsies by doing damage. And if you’re not giving them a big advantage, then how’s the oki game different from every other fighter out there?
Not really. It doesn’t stand out as bad because works out well in the end.
Also, removing it would present a contradiction. What happens when you don’t have meter and you try to stop dashing? Do you just never stop? There are enough possible situations to make that a problem.
That’s exactly the point.
It’s the fact that the oki is strong and meaty enough to actually be relevant and interesting is what players like about it. It’s not like anyone’s trying to parade that GG has the absolute strongest oki game in existence.
Also, there’s no game that doesn’t present an advantage for someone who took the momentum by winning in footsies.
Combos are the least interesting part of fighting games. Execution is a different matter but really if the two go hand in hand for you then maybe you should look into competitive piano recitals or something.