Arcade ST vs. Remix

[JigglyNorris]

Brian, I have never played you, but I have seen video’s you on YouTube and I have heard quite a bit about you and I gotta say, you have a hell of a Guile.

But I completely disagree about the whole DR giving Bison a huge advantage. Its a really pathetic reversal. If you just Jump-in after Bison is down, DR is useless. Completely. You won’t have the exact same option that you had in ST, but Im pretty certain you can several other effective ways of dealing with the DR. I’ve had people do it to me anyway.

Also, giving Bison another option in a match he loses sounds pretty fair to me.

[Snatcher]

Brian, I have never played you, but I have seen video’s you on YouTube and I have heard quite a bit about you and I gotta say, you have a hell of a Guile.

But I completely disagree about the whole DR giving Bison a huge advantage. Its a really pathetic reversal. If you just Jump-in after Bison is down, DR is useless. Completely. You won’t have the exact same option that you had in ST, but Im pretty certain you can several other effective ways of dealing with the DR. I’ve had people do it to me anyway.

Also, giving Bison another option in a match he loses sounds pretty fair to me.

Are you insinuating that ST Hawk/Gief beat Dic? That’s not very accurate at all, the matches are pretty close, but most certainly in Dictator’s favor.

[CWheezy]

Are you insinuating that ST Hawk/Gief beat Dic? That’s not very accurate at all, the matches are pretty close, but most certainly in Dictator’s favor.

T hawk yes, but top players seem to think that zangief beats dictator overall.

Just goin from nohoho’s tier list

[mikeidge]

Are you insinuating that ST Hawk/Gief beat Dic? That’s not very accurate at all, the matches are pretty close, but most certainly in Dictator’s favor.

I think he was reffering to guile vs dic which xblbrian was commenting about.

[geo]

He’s one of the only characters in ST who has enough frame advantage (after a throw) to set up an ambiguous cross up.

Where is frame advantage after a throw documented for each character? I’ve never seen it. Or is this just a “feeling”?

[noskid313]

In the end all the knowledge and theory fighter is good at mid level, but when all the best players are there, ST players fall in line and lose to the best player with a top tier character, or if your lucky, one of the few people that can play Ryu. Maybe it’s just that no player on earth is working hard enough… or maybe it’s that the game is really being misrepresented on this thread.

If you treat ST as a social game or a spectator sport, it’s really good, we can watch japan on youtube, we can have gettogethers and use the entire roster, but the question is, are we talking about social play, are are we talking competitive play? ST has a clear advantage as a social game because of the players that played it, but that allowed it to get a pass as a competitive game that games like A3 and 3s (the first time) didn’t get.

Lets ask ourselves: what game would actually look bad if it were played like ST? ban the top character, softban the next character, probably frown on another characer, and limit your group to experienced players you all personally know? Lets also run mostly single game or team events. How does 3s look? A3? MvC2? CE? WW? Does any game look bad in that scenario?

I don’t think it’s a bad thing necessarily, letting ST stay in the limelight kept a key group of players active in the scene through the console transition and while there were no new games coming. My problem is that it’s being twisted now to be something totally different than it really was in an effort to turn SFHD back towards an image of ST seen through rose-colored glasses, not the actual game.

I would rather just let the past be the past, we can remember the great times of ST, we can pretend that all the people here really cared about fei long and t.hawk as if they were in the game, we can pretend that all the people that cared about 3-7 matchups were actually practicing instead of searching youtube for a japanese player that did it for them. We don’t have to actually drag ST through the mud for another 10 pages.

We don’t need to go into all the hypocrisy here, people that suddenly hate throw whiffs after defending them in SF3 and SF4. People that hate easy execution but love a single command crossup, people that say that the top tier didn’t change, then that certain characters were OP.

I would rather just take the high road, and remember ST as the great game we can choose to remember it as, and continue to explore SFHD, aka the main event that is only temporarily overshadowed by SF4’s mainer event, and continue working to bring the series to the competitive level of a CS 1.6 or a SC 1.16.

I know a lot of players are also concerned about our Japanese friends, but rest assured that once they have SFHD 1.X installed on their viewlix cabs they will be back in full force and won’t take long to catchup, in the meantime we should continue to forge ahead, for them, as they would have done in the arcade era, for us.

nice post, cynical in all the right places…

American ST sucks. Japanese ST is great.

HD is a change for the better.

Someone on here was quoting game theory ( i think it was python), and in his exposition concerning the flaws in ST he considered inherent imbalanced systemic of the wacked risk/reward scenarois. HD strives to correct that imbalance; pretty much sums up precisely why HD is better.

Some OGs dont like the changes…fucking dinosaurs…but seriously some changes were good, some bad (more along the lines of unecessary) but i see nothing that isn’t has broken or cringe worthy that wasnt present in ST.

[fatboy]

You guys are vastly, vastly overrating dictator here.

Question, who other than sirlin has ever played bison in the top 8 at evo? Has there ever been a bison in the top 4?

And according to japanese and american tier lists, he has never been very high.

Taira is a pretty good bison player right? He ranks bison as beating st t hawk, fei long, cammy, and new sagat. Awesome.

Brian, you say he;s been winning for years, but has he really? Is 2 frames on his devil’s reverse make him broken?

1. From last Augst to this May. Japanese DIC has won more tourny than anyother character.

2. Evo 2k6 Nelson made to the Finals with ST Dic.

3. The DR doesn’t make him broken. But it greatly leans make matches heavly in his favor.

[fatboy]

STUFF…

First, you are right in that all it does is add a thinking layer to the game. But the risk reward it heavily skewed to Dictator.

Second, very respectfully, by you description of how to stuff the DR shows me that you may not really understand how it is used to escape ticks. ( I SWEAR, I AM NOT FLAMING):tup:

The DR is used to escape tick throws, the “tick” has to happen first, the DR is used to escape the throw. So the drill from Sim, Jumping short from Blanka, the jumping attack from Chun all must hit or force DIC into block stun. Then and only then after the “tick” does DIC use the DR. It makes the throw whiff and the normal attack the corresponds to that throw comes out while DIC flies into the air.

The way you “stuff” the DR is to anticipate the DR after the ‘tick’ and use the appropriate counter, i.e. up flame for Sim if DIC is in the corner. However, if Sim is wrong, he is left open for a WORLD of hurt. So you see, the DR is Win- Win- Win no matter what for DIC against the Tick-throw. Here either escapes the throw trap, is hit out DR (which still ultimately gets him out of a throw loop), or does a shit load of damage to the opponent for guessing wrong in trying to stuff the DR.

Trapping him was the only was to get an advantage on DIC. The new DR, allows him to escape with for free or for a small price. Either way he escapes and an opponent never really gets to press their advantage.

[Khiempossible]

First, you are right in that all it does is add a thinking layer to the game. But the risk reward it heavily skewed to Dictator.

Second, very respectfully, by you description of how to stuff the DR shows me that you may not really understand how it is used to escape ticks. ( I SWEAR, I AM NOT FLAMING):tup:

The DR is used to escape tick throws, the “tick” has to happen first, the DR is used to escape the throw. So the drill from Sim, Jumping short from Blanka, the jumping attack from Chun all must hit or force DIC into block stun. Then and only then after the “tick” does DIC use the DR.

this is the worst theory fighter I’ve ever heard. I was going to bring out my flame thrower to try and nip it out, but I trust you to be smart enough to figure it out on your own.

I’ll point out the words for you:

JUMP ATTACK
DR
UNDERSTAND

bonus word: IRONY

[VirtuaFighterFour]

The DR is used to escape tick throws, the “tick” has to happen first, the DR is used to escape the throw. So the drill from Sim, Jumping short from Blanka, the jumping attack from Chun all must hit or force DIC into block stun.

This might work with Sim because the drills can hit low, but for Blanka, and Chun, and pretty much any other character, the jumping attacks are overhead class, meaning Dictator if he wants to preserve charge for Devil’s Hand he needs to block low. Overheads will beat low block, meaning an opponent doesn’t have to go into tick then throw, the opponent’s overhead jumping attack will land and then they can combo into possibly a knockdown or even a dizzy.

If you land an overhead on a crouching opponent you should be going for the combo and not tick throwing anyways. I fail to see how Dictator’s new Devil’s Hand helps if an opponent just goes straight into combo which they should be doing anyways after a successful jump in.

Like Blanka lands a jumping short and you block high then he knows you can’t use Devil’s Reverse because you have no downward charge. However if you charge down to avoid a tick after jumping short then you are going to eat jumping short. The Blanka player should see this and then go straight into a combo.

Maybe I’m missing something here?

[Thelo]

So the overpowered Bison strategy to escape a splash tick is to eat the jump attack voluntarily, hope to the Street fighter gods that he doesn’t just combo you, do the DR, then hope you don’t punish the DR on its way down? (You can’t block high, then do the DR, since it needs a down charge).

You can easily punish the DR on reaction even if your throw whiffs, because it’s so damn slow. Honda can headbutt it even if he whiffs a low jab instead of the ochio, he has like a whole second to do it. Zangief can block it, then be right next to Dic to threaten a SPD, or he can lariat it from a greater distance. Anyone with a DP can DP it. I’m sure you can find answers that other characters can do on reaction to the DR. It’s slow and predictable!

Really, eating the jump attack for free, then Devil Reversing doesn’t seem that attractive or overpowered at all. You eat damage from the jump attack, risk eating a big combo, then get a big risk of eating damage again from the DR punish even if you don’t get comboed. Devil’s Reverse is practically the least reliable move in the game, and doubly so when your opponent knows it’s coming - it doesn’t propel him to any particularly impressive heights of domination.

Fatboy, I respect you and like that you are always polite and all, but you honestly seem to be talking about things that you haven’t seen yourself. There’s no need to theory fight when you can just fight, and observe the actual results. And the actual results I’ve seen when fighting against Bison is that his reversal Devil’s Reverse is just not very good.

[JigglyNorris]

…wha? If Dictator blocks any jump-in from Chun, Blanka, Honda, nearly anyone, he loses the DR charge. If he wants to risk losing and take the jump-in, then do the DR input hoping his opponent will tick instead of doing a combo, then I don’t see any other scenerio where this can happen.

Point is, Blanka’s J.LK kills Dictator. Chun’s kick kill Dictator, and even without the throw loop, Honda can still shut down Dictator hard. Thelo said it absolutely perfectly; DR gives Dictator probably a 5% chance to get out of a tick.

[brian]

Doesn’t the DR go through jump ins if its done late enough?

[Snatcher]

…Thelo said it absolutely perfectly; DR gives Dictator probably a 5% chance to get out of a tick.

Truth right here. When a Dictator player is DR’ing in the corner, it’s only to get meter to Knee Press Nightmare out. Anyone good will be keeping you in there until you get the meter/you die, whichever comes first.

[CWheezy]

1. From last Augst to this May. Japanese DIC has won more tourny than anyother character.

This is a bold bold claim.

2. Evo 2k6 Nelson made to the Finals with ST Dic.

So in AE, a different game.

3. The DR doesn’t make him broken. But it greatly leans make matches heavly in his favor.

It helps ever so slightly, But you still get hit by jump attacks, It’s not a game breaker.

[fatboy]

This is a bold bold claim.

Is it?

Click this link

Once clicked, scroll down to the bottem of the page and look for the pink colum.

You … click this link.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

Truth right here. When a Dictator player is DR’ing in the corner, it’s only to get meter to Knee Press Nightmare out. Anyone good will be keeping you in there until you get the meter/you die, whichever comes first.

Here’s the [media=youtube]DEtCWmlud7c&feature=channel_page"[/media] of what you’re referring to.

[CWheezy]

Is it?

Click this link

Once clicked, scroll down to the bottem of the page and look for the pink colum.

You … click this link.

Here is last years.

Pretty interesting he is doing slightly better than ryu. Maybe you should look back farther than the bast 6 months, imo. Or maybe at every evo with super turbo.

Also, that graph doesn’t breakdown first place, 2nd, etc. Weak.

[Snatcher]

Here’s the [media=youtube]DEtCWmlud7c&feature=channel_page"[/media] of what you’re referring to.

Thanks for the link, I thought Giga-MSX uploaded it, but I didn’t have time to find it.

[System_1]

Oh lord help me I’m posting in this stupid thread.

fatboy - That list wasn’t Japan only there’s a little bit of (regular) ST from europe and north america in there. It was mostly Japan though yeah and in fact mostly Kanto (Tokyo area.) Ko-hatsu (Kansai) has been having biweekly events lately so some of those guys (kusumondo, tsuji, gunze, etc.) are gaining ground. Anyway I plan on breaking that shit down in more detail when I get to the two year mark this september.

ganelon - Randomness isn’t only throw vs. throw it happens on any simultaneous action. In mame if you turn on easy special move cheats and then bind 2p’s, say, dragon punch to the same button as 1p’s throw then go to throw you’ll get what seems to be (I’ve only played with it a little bit) 50% throws 50% dps.

The only other randomness I’m aware of comes from one frame attacks blankas balls, o.ken and o.ryu’s air hk, HF zangief quick lariat, WW blanka vertical jump fierce. Those moves are randomly unblockable when done point blank.