Arcade ST vs. Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
181

Oh no wayyy! That’s totally nuts.

I’ve been meaning to ask about some of this stuff for a while now, and I never would’ve guessed that answer. I always sort of figured that if something to prevent a throw triggered on the same frame that a throw was supposed to otherwise happen, the throw would always lose out or the command would just fizzle and not happen. Were you testing a DP that hits on that (first) frame? Or just one that’s invincible on that (first) frame? Would the game… also split 50-50 if a throw is supposed to happen on the same frame as the first active hitting frame of an opponent’s normal?

I’m so happy you posted this! Ridiculously awesome timing: I think it probably answers all of my new questions in the ST wiki thread. :lol:

182

It’s amazing…

a lot of these sentiments sound eerily similar to posts made back in '04 after Evo had opted to use console-many ST players were spouting the ST on cab or nothing rhetoric. Now, we fast-foward to present day, and here we are, with yet another controversy brewing around ST. Anyway, moving along…

Sabin, Shockwave, and XFrisco, you guys had the best posts thus far. It’s astounding just how SPOILED**** the ST community is. Why? You were given a second chance with Remix and what does your community do? Dismisses the game. I realize that Remix isn’t 100% ST. Rather it’s more like 90-95% ST. Guess what? That’s plenty fine…and the fact that this scene doesn’t see that is comical. When ST originally launched, NO ONE played it. Heck, ST has never really gotten any play at all in this country (I’m talking about real numbers, not a small pocket of hotspots in the US). Sure, some will argue that GGPO brought about a revival of ST. Let’s be real, it did not. All GGPO did was give other SRKers who played other games the opportunity to experience ST. That’s it. STILL, only a handful of new players. And just when it looks like it’s going to stay that way indefinitely, you guys get the opportunity of a lifetime by the announcement of Remix. Say what you will want about Sirlin, but he seriously did the ST scene a huge favor. Because of Remix, for the first time ever, casual gamers actually CARE**** (YES, CARE) about your game. And what do you guys want to do, dismiss them just as quickly as it took you to decipher that Remix wasn’t 100% ST.

Now personally, I don’t really care if you guys want to continue playing Arcade ST (correction, emulation/DC ST, right?). That’s fine. Heck, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play your personal fav games exclusively (hell, I still mess around with NHL 2000 on the PC). My problem is that the ST scene is willing to drag down SF2 with it. If the ST scene is content with just hosting some side events and random “invitationals,” that’s fine…it’s certainly their perogative to do so. Just do the honorable thing and don’t take down SF2 with you guys. Whether it’s Remix or even another SF2 game (perhaps HF, that’s for you Decoy!), some SF2 at Evo is better than no SF2.

Just out of curiousity, would the ST hardliners even be remotely interested in playing on Classic mode through HDR? Or, is that yet another compromise you guys wouldn’t want to make, especially since it would have to be 16:9? And if you guys are willing to do so, why aren’t any of you actually ON HDR on classic mode? If a lot more people played on that mode, you just might be able to convince some of the newer players who play the remix mode exclusively, to give it a chance. If you guys seriously cannot tolerate the changes Sirlin made, then you should be doing everything in your power to convert the newer remix players to play on classic mode…and then, just maybe, you might be able to convince the Evo Staff to actually choose the Classic mode.

To answer the original question posed by NKI, I’d say I see both games as being equal. HDR definitely has some flaws (no O. chars, Hawk issues, etc) whereas Arcade ST has it’s fair share of BS (Rog’s Super, Claw shenanigans, Game Genie Chun, etc).

Heh, I guess ST mode on AE isn’t looking too bad right about now ,’)

183

You answered this yourself…people would rather play ST on GGPO than classic mode of HDR. :confused:

184

Which makes no sense when you consider that classic mode on HDR is supposed to be based off the DC port. If you’re going to prep for DC ST, then wouldn’t it make sense to actually PREP on the port of DC ST?

185

Not being funny, but i would really love to know why? Can anyone explain it? Is there something wrong with the DC port or something? I thought it was arcade perfect.The only reason i can think of using GGPO over HDR on XBL is for the slightly(very slightly) better lag situation on GGPO (assuming you have a decent connection to XBL and are playing someone fairly close geographically to you).

As part of HDR you can choose old music, old graphics, old sprites, old rules, you can change the screen back to 4:3, and you have all the cool lobbies, audio connection, messaging and friend finding features of XBL.

Is it just a nostalgia/stubbornness thing that’s keeping OG ST players away from classic mode on HDR or what? why wouldn’t you play classic ST on an xbox instead of GGPO? I suppose there is a lack of competition on there at the moment, but if everyone just accepted that XBL was more user friendly and started playing on it with the classic rules turned on instead of GGPO wouldn’t it be a far better experience?

I don’t get it:looney:

186

GGPO’s Netcode makes any game look laggy by comparison.

Seriously. It’s that good.

187

Isn’t this randomness because the game randomly chooses which player’s actions to process first on each frame? Obviously just on the “which moves hits first” issue at least. It also explains pretty well why Akuma’s RD is unblockable so much.

188

If there were decent people playing Classic-mode on HDR, I’d consider playing it there. HDR’s netcode is a step behind GGPO though, and it would take some darn good competition on HDR to make me pick it over GGPO. It’s a tough shift to make, because as it is, nobody is playing Classic Mode. Maybe if we organized a group of folks to go over and play there more regularly, we’d make some headway, but even then I imagine many would rather just stick with GGPO. What are the odds of keeping this plan from stalling, when people are going to be looking for competition that may or may not be there, where the netcode isn’t up to the bar that they’re used to, when an alternative that does have the competion and the superior netcode is readily available? The rest of your post took a very practical and realistic view of the situation, so I’m sure you can appreciate how unlikely of a transition this would be.

189

Hmmm, good reasons to use GGPO over classic ST in HDR, i gotta admit, and the competition IS pretty much not there other than playing Remixed Rules. I will have to take another look at forwarding ports and static IP’s and all that crap for GGPO.If it’s as good as everyone says, it really sounds like i’m missing a party.

I’m not going to stop playing HDR (cause i love my buffed dictator:bgrin:), but it would be good to get some games in with OG street fighter players who aren’t on XBL as well.

190

So I didn’t really play VST to really appreciate it’s differences from STHDR. I just want to half jokingly remind people what HDR was like [media=youtube]wCseWmfIjzU&feature=channel"[/media] and say that it at least it isn’t that bad. It still worries me that that managed to get through somehow, though.

191

It would be kind of difficult to convince newer players to play on Classic mode, what with random input windows for DPs, a lot less auto correction (I’m looking at YOU, Honda’s super in HDR for some reason), a tougher execution curve, Vega’s wall dive, etc.

That’s not to say I don’t appreciate what HDR has done for the SF2 community; it was pretty dead when I came into it, and with HDR’s release, it is very much alive. I hear tournament numbers are pretty decent (in fact, in my own personal experience, there were 38 entrants at MWC, which seems like good numbers for SF2), and I’ve heard countless people tell me “I didn’t really ever play vanilla ST, but I love HDR”.

However…

I think a middle ground needs to be reached. HDR IS good enough for tournament play, but must we really settle for “good enough”? I still honestly believe that Sirlin made some poor, uninformed decisions (despite people telling him certain changes did NOT need to be made), and they can be corrected. So why not correct them? Maybe take another stab at balancing Akuma, reverse stupid, needless changes (I’ve already given my opinion on those), and then we’d have a REALLY solid game that satisfies everyone. Or most people. “Everyone” is never satisfied.

192

I was talking to NKI about this after MWC, and it’s certainly a possibility, especially since you don’t have to play it on 16:9, and even if you did it’s not an impossible switch. However, what we don’t know is if it is exactly the DC port or not; tests, as far as either of us knew, haven’t been run. So I’m definitely open to the option, and in fact played some Classic mode before MWC with a friend online because he wanted to get OG ST practice and doesn’t have GGPO. I also occasionally look on Classic Mode if I boot up Remix, but sadly no one’s ever there.

193

No ETA yet. It will take me a while just to write it, plus I have to take screen shots and maybe even cap some footage.

Keeping in mind that dizzies are random, can you really list a consistent TOD combo that doesn’t involve super or a cross-up for “over half the cast”? Sure, any character can hurt you really bad if they jump over your fireball, but Dic is the only character who consistently wins the entire round off one jump-in (non-cross-up) which requires no setup at all.

Yeah, being able to do ambiguous cross-up off an un-teched throw is great, but top players are going to be teching almost all of your throws…

Actually he has a 50% chance of surviving. In the case of Gief or Hawk, instead of “I knocked down Dic in the corner; the round is over”, the grappler now has to guess, “Will he DR or not?”. That’s 50/50. If the grappler guesses wrong, Dic is out of the corner and out of trouble. If the grappler guesses right, Dic loses maybe 10% from a splash, then it’s another 50/50 guessing game.

This is significantly better than his corner situation in ST.

194

I never really thought about this. I mean, the part where Dictator is the only character in HDR with a non crossup ToD that requires 0 setup. It’s completely true. Hell, some characters lost their ToD altogether (Dee Jay), be it crossup or not…

195

GGPO’s netcode, while not perfect either, is far better than Live/PSN’s. I would definitely like to play HDR online to prep for HDR tourneys but the timing is just too off, which still makes GGPO the more ideal choice. For Cali players on HDR from the east coast, I generally get an everpresent feeling of sluggishness. On GGPO, the connection is not a problem. For Japanese players on HDR, everything semi-teleports. On GGPO, it’s generally at most sluggish. And although I mostly prefer the CPS2’s graphics and music, I wouldn’t mind playing either version offline, esp. classic mode, assuming everything is right (there aren’t any issues that immediately jump out).

I’m not sure why there’s such fear for the death of the game though. Most (but certainly not all) players, whatever they enjoy, will still play HDR if they have to. And tourney results have shown that the same players perform basically the same in both games, meaning that nobody is really frustrated by any change in performance. This discussion is just shaping up the ultimate decision of the ST/HDR scene’s future.

nh2: Ah, yes, thanks, good points. That sort of stuff is what we ought to be talking about instead of this.

196

What makes O. Shotos air HKs any different? On NKI’s/T.AKiba’s frames site, it lists Air HK as 0/1f for every iteration, unless O. Shotos differ from S. Shotos in some way that’s not readily apparent?

stplayah mentioned something to me about abusing O. Ryu’s air hk crossup, but i always thought it was exactly the same as N. Ryu?

197

I am not talking theory fighter here. I flew my ass to AZ and played Giga, and Adrian (Atonilsim), several times of the last 2 + years. They have the best Dictators in the USA.

If you are talking about “stuffing” a DR, then you guys are not understanding how the NEW DR is escaping tick throws and how advantageous it really is. I have played days with Giga and hours with Adrian. I have had Giga and Cole spend three days at place playing nothing but Sim versus Dictator.

I have learned the match up, I have beaten good dictators at EVO, in the tournament, in money matches, and in casuals. I understand the match up. If you can’t understand how this really helps him, I can’t help you.

Nor is it worth the time to try and explain it.

NKI, I believe articulated the new strength of the DR much better than I did, in a post above. If you don’t believe that, then you just don’t believe it.

Don’t accuse some of theory fighter when you don’t know where I gained my knowledge. I have actually played the match up for hours, hundreds times with some of the best player in the US.

Outside of wins on XBL, who have any of you three beaten worthwhile in real life? Until you go to EVO, and actually beat someone worth while in person, for a MONEY match or during the tournament, don’t accuse a person of not knowing what they are doing when they have actually used the strategies discussed to win against some every strong players off line. Maybe you have beaten someone worth while with your character, but I know exactly who’s Dictator at EVO I have beaten with Sim, and what strategies I used.

There is absolutely no theory fighter here. I flew my ass all over the country to play some great players, to try to get better at the game, off-line, lag free, to learn how to play that match. And I know exactly what strategies I can not use in HDR anymore because of the NEW DR.

Thank you! You know I would love to see it. I would end some innate the discussion here. I not saying he is the best character ever, I am just illustrating a point that he isa pretty strong character, capable of winning and placing high in tournaments without the new DR.

198

Eh? If the grappler has time to splash, he does it. There’s no downside to it at all, no guessing game there, because Bison cannot DR through a splash. Now here’s the Honda flowchart from that point onwards - for Zangief, substitute HHS for lariat, for Hawk I’m not sure. Notice how the only place DR comes into play can be negated by the grappler through careful execution.

Or show me how I’m wrong, and that DR means that Bison somehow now escapes splash ticks with a 50% chance.



Honda splashes
|
|---Bison eats the splash to keep his down charge
|     |
|     |
|     |---Honda combos into jab HHS:
|     |    Bison eats a lot of damage, end.
|     |
|     |---Honda tries to ochio,
|          Bison Devil Reverses through it safely.
|           |
|           |
|           |--- Honda was smart enough to
|           |     keep his back charge,
|           |     and headbutts the DR.
|           |     Bison eats the headbutt and is KD:
|           |     restart the flowchart.
|           |
|           |--- Honda doesn't react fast enough:
|                 Bison escapes, end.
|
|
|---Bison blocks the splash high
     |
     |
     |--- Honda did a tight tick, and ochios Bison. End.
     |
     |--- Honda did a tight tick, but tries to jab HHS.
     |     Bison blocks, and only takes some chip damage. End.
     |
     |
     |--- Honda did a loose tick
            |
            |--- Bison reacts fast enough, and counters Honda
            |     (many possibilities). Honda takes damage, end.
            |
            |--- Bison doesn't react fast enough,
                  Honda ochios or jab HHS Bison, end.
199

To me the ST v HDr argument is pretty moot. Sure people will have their gripes and favorites, but is it really going to stop you from entering say HDr at Evo? Maybe a handful, but I’d bet that the overwhelming majority of vanilla ST fans will play HDr, and still have fun.

The bottom line is HDr is a new and shiny game, gives the community a standard for once (eg no CCC2 v DC v Arcade vs HSF arguments) and it doesn’t completely suck. It’s definitely here to stay.

99.9% of tournaments will run HDr instead of ST, and usually when ST is available, they’ll run both ala MWC 09.

I completely understand clinging to ST, for it’s nostalgia, feel, and some changes/additions in HDr that you don’t agree with. But let’s be honest, are tournaments really going to dust of their DCs once again and run DC ST as the tournament standard? I doubt it.

Is HDr really that unplayable? I don’t think so. Unfortunately what it boils down to IMO is just favoritism to the extreme, to the point where it’s hurting the ST scene which was small enough to begin with. Just my .02.

200

Thelo, if Bison eats the the jump-in and Honda goes for an ochio, Bison can DR to the other of the screen. I did it a few times against you.

Also, Bison is still fucked in that corner against Gief and Hawk. If Bison does a DR and gets hit (which he’s gonna), Gief and Hawk just need to tick once he lands, assuming he got hit by a jump-in at the beginning.