Arcade ST vs. Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
141

In the end all the knowledge and theory fighter is good at mid level, but when all the best players are there, ST players fall in line and lose to the best player with a top tier character, or if your lucky, one of the few people that can play Ryu. Maybe it’s just that no player on earth is working hard enough… or maybe it’s that the game is really being misrepresented on this thread.

If you treat ST as a social game or a spectator sport, it’s really good, we can watch japan on youtube, we can have gettogethers and use the entire roster, but the question is, are we talking about social play, are are we talking competitive play? ST has a clear advantage as a social game because of the players that played it, but that allowed it to get a pass as a competitive game that games like A3 and 3s (the first time) didn’t get.

Lets ask ourselves: what game would actually look bad if it were played like ST? ban the top character, softban the next character, probably frown on another characer, and limit your group to experienced players you all personally know? Lets also run mostly single game or team events. How does 3s look? A3? MvC2? CE? WW? Does any game look bad in that scenario?

I don’t think it’s a bad thing necessarily, letting ST stay in the limelight kept a key group of players active in the scene through the console transition and while there were no new games coming. My problem is that it’s being twisted now to be something totally different than it really was in an effort to turn SFHD back towards an image of ST seen through rose-colored glasses, not the actual game.

I would rather just let the past be the past, we can remember the great times of ST, we can pretend that all the people here really cared about fei long and t.hawk as if they were in the game, we can pretend that all the people that cared about 3-7 matchups were actually practicing instead of searching youtube for a japanese player that did it for them. We don’t have to actually drag ST through the mud for another 10 pages.

We don’t need to go into all the hypocrisy here, people that suddenly hate throw whiffs after defending them in SF3 and SF4. People that hate easy execution but love a single command crossup, people that say that the top tier didn’t change, then that certain characters were OP.

I would rather just take the high road, and remember ST as the great game we can choose to remember it as, and continue to explore SFHD, aka the main event that is only temporarily overshadowed by SF4’s mainer event, and continue working to bring the series to the competitive level of a CS 1.6 or a SC 1.16.

I know a lot of players are also concerned about our Japanese friends, but rest assured that once they have SFHD 1.X installed on their viewlix cabs they will be back in full force and won’t take long to catchup, in the meantime we should continue to forge ahead, for them, as they would have done in the arcade era, for us.

142

To be honest, I don’t think anyone here has said (at least from what I’ve read) that ST is some amazingly balanced game; I said practice. If anything, I see the people who want HDR arguing for balance, which throws your 3S comparison out the window because we continue to keep that game around even when it is as unbalanced as ST.

As for Fei and T. Hawk, so what if no one cared? Some (not many I know) people do now, and they want a shot at it. That’s not to say that the ST hasn’t been stagnant for years, sure it has, but HDR has actually brought people (new people) to ST who are practicing 3-7 matchups. For example, I played Honda all throughout the tourney at MWC even when I came up against Ken and later O. Sagat.

You are right, though: let the past be past and let’s move on to the now and future, which is when people do want to try these things in ST.

As for the rest, let people say what they will say, it doesn’t really matter. I prefer ST, I’ve laid out my reasons for it, and I intend to stick with it. If others choose not to play it, fine, and I will likely transition to HDR if I have to. But it’s certainly no obvious, all-or-nothing proposition like you seem to make it.

143

You mean the CS that valve tried to replace w/ a shitty remake and everybody tried to like it but eventually realized the original was better?

Hmmm

144

I think you’re overestimating bison’s offensive game.It’s solid, but no way is it massively solid enough to warrant him getting totally raped as soon as you get him in the corner like in vanilla ST. Why shouldn’t he have some tools to help his corner game slightly?.This is the kind of perception that bothers me, people are comparing HDR to ST without giving any creedence to the possibility that the changes made are actually better overall for the game, and maybe ST got it wrong in a few places (gasp!).

Why the fuck should a character be mincemeat when he gets in the corner just because he has a good rushdown offense? Wouldn’t that mean that ken, fei, boxer and a bunch of other characters should be defensively weak as a kitten too, cause those guys can rushdown like a motherfucker? Look at honda for example, great rushdown if you’re smart, and a fucking defensive tank to boot!! HDR is about evening out the tier lists–that means that some characters will get nerfed whether you like it or not, because that makes the game as a whole broader and more accessible, which was it’s main purpose. I main a good bison, and there are tons of characters in the roster that can destroy my offense or zone me if they know what they’re doing, and even the new invincible frames on the DR don’t stop the carnage in the corner completely if they force me in there. That shit is not a get out of jail free card as a lot of people seem to think it is, and nothingxs, it’s a hell of a lot harder to use as an offensive tool than you think.Sure it’s useful, but it’s risky, slow, and telegraphed. Along with no good reversal or anti air, how crippled do you want one character to be defensively??

Remixed bison is just fine IMO. Sirlin got him just right.

The main reason that bison hasn’t generally been a pro level tournament character in the past has been because of his defence weakness, so why not give him somewhat of an answer to at least put him back in the game a bit? He’s a contender now. He can’t just push the win button, and his defence is still weak, but in the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing he can at least keep pace with the better, more rounded characters, which is the whole point of the remixing.

IMO People are just clinging on to ST rules because they’re attached to them and complaining because they haven’t adapted their game to the buffs of some of the rest of the cast (obviously stupid game changes aside, akuma etc). I mean no disrespect at all to anyone who prefers old ST rules to HDR, I love ST and have been playing it for a long time, but i really appreciate what HDR tried to achieve because like it or not, ST was flawed in a few areas. I don’t want to get into a flamewar, so i’m gonna do my very best to be gracious here, because i know there are some SERIOUSLY good OG players out there who will disagree with me, but it’s a new game-rather than whining about the rules, just step up your game and figure out new ways to win it.

145

Maybe this is a dumb question, but how exactly do you go about getting a xbl or psn downloaded game into an arcade cabinet, other than buying a 360 or ps3 and housing it in the cabinet? There’s no mame or pc version, right? Please explain…

146

Sorry to say, but you answered your own question.

147

Oh… Well that’s convenient =)

148

Lol, there’s no way in hell DR is broken. Bison still has no answer to a jump-in after he is down. DR loses to those, meaning Hawk and Gief can still throw him to death after he gets knocked down. All it is is another weak defensive option for Bison along with his other lousy defensive options.

149

Instead of having the game change the rules to help you out in this situation, why allow to have yourself pushed into the corner in the first place? Sounds like you messed up your gameplan and you want to the game to help you out instead of yourself.

That’s BS. Dictator already won plenty of tournies in ST without the HDR changes, in US and Japan. I personally saw a good Dictator player win ECC one year and place top 5 most other years, with OG west coast heads in attendance. Dictator has also been represented in evo top 8 more than once, I believe. I think you’re underestimating how good the character really is in ST, as I’m pretty sure he was considered top tier for a LONG time in the game’s existence. Even now, he’s probably either top tier or just slightly outside of it. it’s not like the character sucks. You might want to re-evaluate your own game if that is the impression you get with this character.

I don’t think that is the point of this thread, though. I’m not suggesting dumping this game because it’s not ST and I doubt others are doing this either. I’m actually happy HDR exists because it’s new. People just need to face facts that this isn’t what a lot of people are happy with at the same time, whether or not it has anything to do with personal beefs with their character being tweaked in an unfavorable way. For all the stuff that was ‘fixed’ from ST, HDR IS flawed in a lot of ways, I can’t see how this can be disputed.

150

i think what bison has in place of a good anti air reversal, is the ability to dizzy the opponent quite easily. the best bison players i’ve gone up against pretty much end it once i mess up, with dizzy combos. i’d say thats a good trade off for his weak corner game. certainly if he had a way out of the corner, id say he better lose the guarenteed dizzy combos.

also, sirlin had a pretty good analogy about the game in his blog which i think holds very true…
“I picture a flat piece of wood with 100 indentations on it and 100 marbles. If we have 90 of the marbles resting in the right indentations, we wouldn’t want to violently shake the whole thing around in hopes of fixing the last 10.”

in other words…the game will never be perfect. but its damn close… maybe 92 of the marbles are in place now.

151

As mikeidge touched on above, what makes Dictator top tier (aside from his excellent pokes, fast walking speed, scissor kicks that give advantage on block, head stomp, etc.) is his ability to win the round off one mistake. As Dictator, I can guess wrong and jump into a DP eight times or so before I lose the round, but if I guess right just once and jump over a fireball, the round is over. He needs to have weaknesses (such as no good anti-air, no good reversal) to balance this out.

None that I can think of off the top of my head…

Sorry, I guess I didn’t document it well enough in the Wiki, so I’ve updated it. Let me know if there’s anything that’s still unclear.

152

Any ETA on your detailed breakdown on why you feel either is superior ?

I’m seriously interested in reading it.

153

Guys, Devil’s Reverse is an outstandingly weak reversal, maybe even weaker than Dhalsim’s teleport. Basically everyone can tag it somehow if they are expecting it, and it’s not hard to expect Devil’s Reverse when you’re trying to tick-throw Bison or something. Jump-ins beat it cleanly, fireballers can just fireball after their tick whiffs, etc.

There is no way you can theory-compare that to serious reversals with a straight face - I really haven’t seen it be a serious game-winner. Yes Bison can be scary in general, but reversal Devil’s Reverse in particular is only scary in Theory Fighter land.

154

I beleive it is a game winner. It allow yous to escape tick set ups. That is huge, versus some characters.

The move alone, isn’t a game winner.

However, escaping even just one one-tick throw allows Dic to reset the situation. Even if he gets hit, it doesn’t matter becasue he gets out of the loop and out of the pressure versus some characters. One escape can add up to being a game winner when one mistake versus DIC can peace you out.

You want to limited his chances to TOD you, and escaping throw traps defininately countinues to provide him oppurtunies to TOD you as the game progresses.

155

Yeah, except the three grapplers who want to tick-throw Bison can just tick him with their jumping splash-type attack instead of a low jab and DR isn’t going to let him escape it any more than before.

Yes it’s an extra option, so it is indeed strictly better than not having it, but I really think most people are overstating its actual effectiveness. It’s not like he gained a dragon punch or something. When a grappler knocks Bison in the corner, Bison is still in real big trouble. Now he just has this 5% extra chance of surviving the whole thing, which I feel is pretty tame.

156

Everything you said is very true. And you bring up excellent points.

But it does greatly effect the tick throw abilities of the non-grapplers: Namely, Sim, Chun, Blanka, and Ken. They need the throw pressure in thier wins against Dic. Without them it becomes a constant game of “catch the Dictator.” Which IMHO, is extremely tedious.

I am sure there are a few others, but those are the ones I beleive that it effects the most off of the top of my head.

157

Can’t Blanka and Ken just tick with jump short as usual?

Alright, Theory Fighter time because I don’t play Chun or Sim! Against Chun Li and Dhalsim, yeah, it seems like Devil Reverse would be more useful. I guess Chun Li will try more jump-ins than usual against a waking up Dictator to counter the Devil’s Reverse, but then Dictator can probably jump out of the followup if he blocks instead. Can Dic use DR to escape from the neckbreaker?

And Dhalsim, hmm, maybe a meaty MK or HK drill would have approximately the tick power that his slide would normally have? I would guess that’s probably his best way to stuff the Devil’s Reverse. Does Devil’s Reverse escape from a meaty Yoga flame? Even if it needs a charge and even if it can be stuffed, DR could be useful to escape these particular traps, forcing Dhalsim to mix it up a bit.

Even against grapplers, there’s some more thinking that has to go on. Grappler splashes eat the DR for free, but they sometimes take a bit more time to setup than a low jab tick, especially after a quick knockdown like from a Honda far sweep, so sometimes the grappler won’t be able to tightly tick with a splash in time and go for a riskier low jab tick instead. In that situation, if Dic correctly guesses which tick is coming, he can get out (block -> counter the late splash, or DR the low jab). But obviously, sometimes the grappler has plenty of time to setup the splash tick and the DR will be of no use if the grappler realized it.

So basically, with all of that said, DR seems to be a last-resort way for Dictator to escape from certain specific traps, if he can:

A) analyze the situation fast enough,
B) have a charge,
C) guess which variant of the trap his opponent is going to use, and
D) execute the reversal correctly.

So basically there is a thinking layer going on, where previously there was only an execution layer. There is variety where previously there was repetition. That whole situation is still heavily skewed against Dic, but if he does everything right, he has a chance to escape.

Is this really a bad thing?

158

If bison had a dp like move plus an easy dizzy combo setup he would be overpowered. If I get hit with deejays 7hit crossup combo the game won’t be over, and I won’t be dizzied. It would be difficult as hell to make a comeback…but get hit with bisons and it’s over. No other character that I can think of has something that punishing.

My point is that if bison got a move to get him out of the corner, he should lose the ease of dizzies.

159

against guile the DR invincibility is huge. In ST dictator vs guile is often a game of instant kills in either direction. If dic gets flashkicked, he can lose to Guile’s ambiguous crossup (particularly ambiguous against him). And of course dic can kill guile instantly too. In Remix, dictator can escape the crossup with DR. This is a really big deal, since it means the penalty for getting flashkicked goes way down, and that skews the whole matchup.

I think DR gets my vote for worst change in the game.

(as far as ST vs Remix, I think Remix has some good stuff and some bad stuff, but at the end of the day its probably an overall improvement. Now if only the netcode was as good as the netcode to play ST on PCs…)

160

You guys are vastly, vastly overrating dictator here.

Question, who other than sirlin has ever played bison in the top 8 at evo? Has there ever been a bison in the top 4?

And according to japanese and american tier lists, he has never been very high.

Taira is a pretty good bison player right? He ranks bison as beating st t hawk, fei long, cammy, and new sagat. Awesome.

Brian, you say he;s been winning for years, but has he really? Is 2 frames on his devil’s reverse make him broken?