Arcade ST vs. Remix

Even thou N.Boxer is 10 times better than O.Boxer, the difference of his rush punch just proves how some matchups can go easier with a simple hitbox tweak !, you can also low forward confirm link jab rush punch which helps him against Guile.

I personally think O.Boxer does better against a number characters if played well, especially Guile/Chun/Sim.

Did anyone prove that O.Ryu’s fb is actually faster ? it could be another O.characters walk faster type of information.

Btw add to that O.Ryu/O.Ken have a faster jump speed.

Startup is faster, actual projectile is probably the same speed.

11f startup, 39 recovery for Old
12f startup, 40 recovery for New

I’m sure the original is better, but I really like HDR. I’m sad at all the hate…

I greatly over-estimated the amount of free time that I have these days, but I finally finished writing up my thoughts on ST vs. Remix. The first post has been updated.

Very interesting read and thanks for the link to Hitboxes in clear image.

extremely interesting read

neither game is perfect, but I guess that what YOU (the player) personally enjoy out of games is ultimately the deciding factor of which games likes more.

i’ve heard some/a lot of the og players cite that hdr has a lot less “flavor” “individualism” “variety” “quirkiness” “some other synonym” etc, than ST. I think that if you play the same game for 10+ years, balance becomes a non-issue at that point and its those subtle changes and differences, like being able to pick between O and N character and such, become really important and its what you enjoy the most out of your game.

Ask any marvel player about balance, lol, see if they care. But its amazing how the most broken tourney game garners practically the most hype/fun out of its players year after year.

I think the most important thing for hdr, though, is that its a lot more new school friendly than ST can or will ever be (because of easier inputs, more balance, etc, etc). Although it might not be a better game per se than ST (largely debateable but thats not the point), its definitely a lot more tourney viable than ST. (even nki agrees with this)

So like I said, it comes down to player preference at the end of the day that determines if you like ST or HDR more. Also note that there are a good number of people (like afrolegends) that dont care/mind which version gets the spotlight at their local tourney, as long as they can still play their SFII :tup:

haha. Thanks for that, NKI. We have the same thought pattern in your written analysis, but there is some stuff I didn’t know was in place, like the Honda auto-block on reversal headbutt. I’m pretty sure I’ve had that happen to me before and not realize it. Interesting stuff re: the graphical glitches…

Just wanted to point out that the year Choi lost to Tokido’s Wall Dive shenanigans, it was on CCC2, which was already proven to have about 4 frames of lag AND it was on Gief stage, despite repeated cries to Choi to switch the stage between matches. Both things contributed heavily to Choi being unable to react and block Vega’s Wall Dive shenanigans properly.

  • James

What does Gief’s stage do to make it harder to defend against wall dives?

In CCC2, there are random instances of slowdown and random speed spikes on Gief’s stage and Hawk’s stage, I believe. I could be wrong, but I remember everyone telling Choi to change the stage, and pretty sure that was the reason.

  • James

Nice post NKI, I logged on and checked my user cp and had to postpone watching the simpsons treehouse of horror 5, 6, 7, 12.

Great read.

Oh and you could also say that new motions also make it easier for ken to pull out a crazy kick or a shoryuken, when he goes for walk up low kick 2 in 1 hado.

That’s just nitpicking though.

Now that you have spoken NKI and gotten everything out of your system, I hope you will now either start supporting Remix or hold off bashing the game outside of specific threads. (and even then, doing so in only a very constructive way)

You don’t like Remix, fine.

But to continue the bashing just riles up the masses, confuses the
pulse of the community/playerbase to the uninformed, and ultimately is very
damaging toward getting support from CapCom for the sf2 series (or new features introduced with Remix) going forward.

I don’t go on the ST forum and bash the game for being worse than Remix in an “Arcade ST vs. Remix”. (or worse than Hyper Fighting, etc.)
Consequently, people (players or developers) who go there get the impression that the ST community is in harmony, supportive of their game, and the game gets looked at for future projects.

Neither of us go on the SF4 forums and bash that game for being worse than ST or Remix.
And SF4 and its successors ARE the SF license/gameplay with the largest budget support and most likely ongoing incarnation of the series.

There is very likely currently no budget to fix or redo Remix.
The likliehood of future sales just do not justify the cost of a patch or the assigning of dev staff to work out different kinks… especially when many of those kinks are subjective calls or not fully documented yet.

Do you prefer ST over Remix?
Then play the ST that is included with the dl.

Do you lament that there is almost no active player community for ST on XBL/PSN?
Then let’s start a positive thread to get/support players to get an ST community going.
That or promote/play ST on GGPO.

If you believe that ST had problems and a Remix could have fixed those problems, then I feel your pain.
But that should be anchored in a thread focusing on Remix v2.0.
And likely will become very relevant when the NEXT gen of consoles comes out and they port a Remix 2.0 onto that systems network… which they will ONLY do it there is a large enough community… in harmony and supportive of their game.

Call it how you see it, but when you are blasting a new feature like the hit boxes, I think you are going WAY too far.
You SHOULD be saying “including this feature is GREAT! and we can tweak it to make it even better”; beacuse otherwise all a developer is gonna read is: “THIS FEATURE IS ASS. Developers should not waste their budget on it.”

I enjoy your contributions both in the community and in playing the game NKI.
This post is just an effort to get the Remix community to understand that without harmony and support, CapCom and potential players are gonna get a bad vibe on the state of the game and just pass on by.

Huh, been waiting to hear that for a long time! Glad it came after Evo, though.

The hitbox complaint is kind of valid. Sure if I play some on training I turn them on, and try to watch them, but unless you have a camera and record for playback, its quite hard to tell the merged portions of the hitbox most of the time.

It is a great feature.

hmm interesting read.
T-Hawk does need to be fixed…but not Dic.
Leave him alone.

Devil’s Reverse invincibilty is good to have. I like it.
But you still need a good eye to use it right.
It isnt a “Get out of Jail free card” as you said earlier.

I’d still say HD Remix>>>>ST simply because so much was fixed.
There’s a lot of cheese in ST. And Cheese is the best thing since sliced bread…but too much of it can ruin a meal.
I never call anything cheap, or whine about throw loops.
But sometimes i do wonder why i can’t get out of something i can see a mile away.
For ex, Ken’s knee bash loop.
wtf

So if i had to rate the 2 games i’d say

ST 8/10.
The difficulty curve for some chars is just too damn high!

HDr 9/10
NKI i dont know how you came up with 6.5/10.
lol

I say 9 because its a update man.
We needed it. ST is smegging older than some of these kids out here.
New Music, Backgrounds, char designs…
If they just patch in alternate costumes (somehow) it would be the GOAT.

VFF and I have been saying the same things about hawk forever now.

[media=youtube]oJ5rQEYSk0Q&#t=1m10s"[/media]…in ST Afro Legends would have likely won this match because of block damage. Valle tried to slide into him to score a knockdown and gain a tremendous advantage. Afro blocked correctly and scored a 2-in1- low forward to red fireball…and red fireball knocks down from closer ranges. In ST the only way for Dictator to get out of that situation (being knocked down with little life against a Ryu with a SUPER) would be a reversal SUPER and you need meter for that. In this match Valle does not have enough meter for SUPER but he has a brand new “get out of jail free card” because Devil’s Hand is now specifically designed to go through fireballs as it has a one-frame invincible start up to it plus additional frames of invincibility on its legs to help get through fireballs.

So Afro throws a SUPER fireball out and Valle just uses the new Devil’s Hand to go right through it. That was not an option in ST and Dictator was specifically designed that way. You don’t need a good eye to know to use Devil’s Hand against fireballs in HDR. I see the new DH properties as a mindless addition to an already solid character.

Terrible logic. There are as many things broken as there are fixed in HDR. If the trade off is equal how is that an improvement? Not only that but there are so many documented input problems in HDR that the game might not even be tournament viable.

While many of us rejoice that O.Sagat and ST.Claw’s knockdown are gone in HDR…most of the rest of the changes are not as celebrated as you are making them out to be.

T.Hawk and Chun-Li were ‘fixed’…and by’ fixed’ I mean ‘neutered’ (well spayed for Chun).

Stay away from playing the VF series please.

Can everyone please get off of the “if you think ST is better than HDR that means you MUST HATE HD REMIX” sauce please.

Just because someone prefers ST over HDR or prefers 3S over SFIV or VF or Tekken doesn’t mean that they hate the other game. I think VF is better than KOFXII but I played five hours of KOFXII yesterday and enjoyed it for example.

HDR Classic Mode =/= ST…

EVERYONE IN THIS FORUM complained about the glitches in HDR online…the random sound errors, the lifebars going crazy, start colors dropping people, merely picking Claw forcing disconnects. The way NKI described the hitbox mode is exactly how people have criticized HDR before. They’ve said that X feature has so much potential but it has too many shortcomings to be useful or that bugs and glitches are holding the game back.

Are you saying that pointing out that choosing start colors would crash the game was bashing the game?

Everyone was extremely vocal on this forum about how HDR was terribly coded and Backbone patched some problems…but they didn’t fix all of them. Obviously we are not vocal enough with our complaints. Your perception of people complaining is ridiculous. People have always posted the problems with the game in this forum, there is a giant thread about bugs and errors that I’m sure Backbone has paid attention to at one point because they fixed some things directly from it.

Actually, if you watch that match from the beginning, 1:00 is a better example of why the DR is a get out of jail free card… and Afro knew it. In Classic ST, once he got Valle to block that Fireball at 1:00, there is VERY little reason not to throw another one. But Afro faked it, trying to bait Valle into a DR so he could punish it. Valle didn’t do it, and so he got out of the corner trap simply by doing nothing.

In Classic ST, Afro probably would have just thrown another Fireball and kept Valle in the corner. But now, because throwing a Fireball means you pretty much can DR out of the corner on reaction without worry of being punished (Ryu is stuck in Fireball delay) means that it IS a get out of jail free card for corner Fireball Traps.

  • James

Because there need to be consequences for letting yourself get forced into a bad situation. You let Ken knock you down or walk up and throw you, and now you have to deal with having bad options. Should you try to escape another throw attempt with some reversal, or will he do jab dragon punch to beat your reversal, or will he block and punish your reversal? If you guess right you CAN get out, it’s just that none of your guesses are great options. And… that’s how it should be. Don’t let yourself get placed in a bad position.

The nerf to Ken’s knee bash is one of the changes I dislike the most in HDR. Here was this really interesting character who was almost like a shoto-grappler hybrid in some matchups, and I wanted to see that side of him get stronger, to more fully flesh out the differences between N Ken and Ryu. Instead the complete opposite happened. His most significant changes are ones that help him more in zoning and defense than in offense (reversal super, knockdown strong/fierce srk, invincible strong srk, bigger arc fierce srk), and while the changes to his hurricanes help him get in a bit better, his throw does less damage and has less range, so the payoff for getting in isn’t as high. He’s much more of a Ryu character now than N Ken was, and I think that’s a big shame. Not that there’s anything wrong with Ryu, just… we already have one. Imo ST tried to evolve Ken from a stupid clone into a real individual character more than any other SF2 game had done, and imo HDR decided to take a step back from that.

And that pretty much goes to the heart of my problems with Remix: I think many of the changes tended to make the cast less unique and less interesting. I guess NKI agrees, and I know dudes like jchensor and a few other guys I’ve talked with agree at least with respect to their ST characters.

For sure I’m much less interested in my old ST character, Zangief, not because I think he’s worse (he’s for sure better) but because I think his changes are extremely uninteresting. Ooh, if I guess right I can hop over a low normal into spd! Or, if I guess right I can pop someone’s limb with my new gigantic lariat! Or, if I guess right I can use my kick lariat’s almost-useless low invincibility to go through a low attack! Or, if I guess right I can use the slightly faster green hand to nullify an opponent’s projectile into spd! Like, why is it interesting to make a character better by making him guess-ier? Can I get some better air attacks so Blanka has to actually think before pressing the strong punch button? Can my footsies get a little more range or priority so they dont lose to 1/2 the cast? Ultimately, can I get a real way through my opponents’ walls? R Zangief could have been so cool and interesting, and yet now he’s more of a gambler’s character than ever, a role other characters already played and still play better.

I’ve dropped R Gief completely in favor of the R version of my other ST character, Honda, both because the difference between R Gief’s potential interestingness and what actually happened is too annoying for me to deal with and because even though imo Honda’s changes and non-changes are some of the more perplexing in the game, he’s just too good a character to not use.

Edit: I still think Remix is a really good game. It’s like, which is more preferable, a slightly more balanced cast, or a slightly more interesting cast? I like both, and I’m fine with playing both. I wish there was a way that one game could satisfy both, but I don’t think that’s how it worked out.

Controller glitches nonwithstanding (that will get fixed), why not? It’s ST with a new coat of paint.

I don’t get why people are ragging on this. The throw bash loops of Rog and Ken are still devastatingly effective with the slight tweak. All and all Ken got monstrously better. To say that the knee bash “nerf” (something I’m pretty sure the original developers didn’t mean to be as powerful) more or less killed his character is a little absurd IMO.