Character Points Rank
In order
O.Sagat ??? ?
Dhalsim ??? ?
Claw ??? ?
Boxer ??? ?
DeeJay ??? ?
O.Claw ??? ?
Guile ??? ?
O.Dhalsim ??? ?
Chun-Li ??? ??
O.Chun-Li ??? ??
Ryu ??? ??
Sagat ??? ??
O.Boxer ??? ??
O.Guile ??? ??
Honda ??? ??
O.Honda ??? ??
Blanka ??? ??
O.Ryu ??? ??
Dictator ??? ??
O.Ken ??? ??
Fei Long ??? ??
Cammy ??? ??
O.Cammy ??? ??
O.Fei Long ??? ??
O.Dictator ??? ??
Ken ??? ??
O.DeeJay ??? ??
O.Hawk ??? ??
Hawk ??? ??
Zangief ??? ??
O.Zangief 1?? ??
O.Blanka ??? ??
Don’t know if I agree with everything in this list, but it does show that at one point people thought O. Ken, O. Boxer, O. Honda, O. Ryu and O. Guile were definitely tourney viable. And all of those characters play very differently from their N. versions. Did we ever see many of them in tournaments? Not really with the exception of O. Ken. But their occasional presence did serve to add an extra bit of variety and strategy that I really liked.
I’ve seen that matchup chart before, but it seems kind of funky. Why is Dictator so low? I thought he was second tier?
I didn’t intend for it to sound that way. You’re just saying that the loop was the only thing that made him playable, and almost nobody, including myself, can get that out whenever they want, but I still won at a decent rate. I’ve seen a lot of tourney vids with Hawk pro’s not using that loop at all and murdering.
And yeah, that’s a favorite mind game of mine. So many Gief’s and Hawk’s fall for it.
Ahh now I got cha. My bad. Its kinda hard to tell tone online. Thats understandable as it was a pretty big overstatement. Its still kind of ludicrous to me but whatever.
Yes, it seems like in the past couple of years Dic has climbed up the list. Sometimes characters fluctuate depending on the playing environment too. Here in America we play more of a mixup game and a good dictator can take advantage of an aggressive player base and land more TOD’s than he would in Japan where players play a bit more cautious. Some of that list puts people higher than I would think too. I think most people here would put Honda a little lower. And Zangief #31? what? Zangief is just not that low, I don’t care who the fuck is making the list.
I think the main thing that is funky here is that it doesn’t take into account counter-matches. Zangief is a touch match for Boxer, and that alone puts him up a few ranks in my book.
Sup Zaspacer it was nice getting to talk with you.
- one guy heh
deleted (double-post)
WHO is saying that Dictaor is top tier?
WHERE are they pulling that thought from?
This is a peer review chart put together by top players in each character:
From there we can pull this order:
1 - Dhalsim (Gian)
2 - Boxer (Tsuji)
3 - Claw (ARG)
4 - Ryu (Gotoh)
5 - Chun-Li (Nuki)
6 - Guile (Muteki)
7 - DeeJay (yaya)
8 - Dictator (Taira)
9 - E.Honda (Kusumondo)
10 - Sagat (yaya)
11 - Ken (Aniken)
12 - Fei-Long (Yuubou)
13 - Zangief (Gunze)
14 - Blanka (Komoda)
15 - Cammy (Nakamura)
16 - T.Hawk (K)
We just had EVO 2009, and Dictator was used once in the Top 8… and he lost the match.
Taira and YuuVega do well with Dictator, but I think this is primarily in a Team format.
Dictator has no terrible matchups, which would seem to give him a high utility in team play.
Japan ST players consistently have eaten TOP US ST players alive.
US players often resort to playing O.Sagat, a character which Japan players have pretty much soft banned.
I don’t think there is a US Dictator player who comes close to either Taira or YuuVega in terms of ability.
To believe that US ST players excel over Japan ST players in the mix-up game I think is flat out incorrect.
Hey nohoho!
Great to meet and chat with you at EVO. 
Shogatsu (O.Honda)*
Gorilla Imo (O.Honda)*
Washiga(ry (O.Honda)*
Nagata (O.Honda)*
Wait, these are all Shogatsu?
Wait, N. Sagat is just behind Ryu on that list?
It’s not that our players are better, it’s that our players allow Bison to beat them. We risk a TOD more often against Bison players and hence see them happen more often. Also our Bison players are probably more willing to bet it all on one. This leads to a playing environment where Bison is getting a lot of wins and people start seeing him as second tier. It doesn’t really have anything to do with Japan.
Now, whether we are right or Japan is right is the question. Well, like you said they usually beat us.
No one is saying Choi and Tokido played like scrubs. What has been said that those techniques, from a ‘scope of the game’ perspective, are a little too strong for those characters.
In HDR, those moves have been toned down so they’re not so over-bearingly strong. You can still zone people out with tiger shots in HDR. They’re still fast, and they still recovery pretty darn well(And he also gained Tiger Knee juggles). Vega can’t wall-dive loop knockdown… but he can tack on a poke for free after wall-dive now - So the move is still very good.
Edit: Issue resolved
Gotcha.
It speaks to Dictator being a very good character within a community of lesser skilled players. (say medium level players)
Where players are more sloppy and TODs have a much higher chance to land, so Dictator players go for (and land) them more often.
Sorry 1hitparry, I didn’t intend to single you out with my statement.
I was just quoting your remark to provide a framework for the issue.
I have read/heard Dictator placed high in the tiers (just as it sounds you have also heard), and I was trying to get a community review on where/why that assessment is being made.
I also brought in both HDR and ST data for the tiering discussion, because I want to address his tiering in each of the games. (whether they are similar tiering I don’t know and is not a point I am arguing here)
I do not know Dictator’s tiering in ST or HDR.
I have various rankings for ST (from what seem pretty good sources) that have him mid-level, but his performance in tourneys under Taira and YuuVega would seem to support his being higher.
However, it might be that his high tourney performance is most frequent in Team Tournaments, which is a very different format from 1-on-1 w/ counterpicking, and would need its own tier rankings.
I don’t have much HDR data for Dictator.
He can do very well in rooms online, but the skill level or effort level of games there is way too suspect.
He has some slots in the top rankings, but again the quality of matches is suspect.
I did not see him used in Devastation vids, but maybe Dictator players weren’t there.
I only saw him used unsuccessfully for one match (Sirlin) in EVO Top 8, and I know there were at least 2 Dictator proficient players (Sirlin and Valle) there in the Top 8. (however, LordBBH did get close to Top 8, and he lost all his matches to a counterpick for that last bout)
I just don’t feel confidant firmly ranking Dictator given this data, I’d place him at upper mid in a 1-on-1 counterpick tourney if I had to make a guess, but I really want to see more results of top tourneys with him in them.
Faster fb
one less rotation on hurricane,
randomly unblockable crossup air hk (allegedly),
HUGE hitbox on Neutral jump RH,
and of course old DP shenanigans.
I’m better with Old in some matchups
Why would you use any of these characters? Is sim just because you can’t do close normals from far away and vice versa? That sounds like a weird reason especially with how good his super was. Can’t figure out any of the other ones… Or wait, did O Chun’s sbk go over low tiger shots or something? I don’t need an in-depth explanation but I’m very curious. Especially like gief and deejay/cammy.
Not allegedly. This is very True. :karate:
Was it only on crossup? For some reason, I was thinking any time it was point blank.
I don’t play some of those characters, but I personally used to play O. Gief just to avoid unwanted green hands during SPD attempts. And I think O. Boxer has a rush punch you can’t duck under.
O. Ryu is beast of a character for those who have really good shoto fundamentals. O. Honda is almost a completely different character than N. Honda, same as O. Ken/N. Ken. O. Guile has his CPS1 standing roundhouse, I believe. This is the kind of variety I miss in HDR…
To add to what Bernie said, O.Boxer is arguably better vs. Chun because all versions of dash straight knock down, and it’s pretty easy to trade with her fireballs.
Last year at Evo I saw Jason Nelson pick O.Boxer vs. Watson’s Ryu for similar reasons…didn’t work out, though.