Didn’t you have the same stance on Akuma? You don’t think anything. You’re too neutral.
P.S. Were you at evo?
Haha sir, if there’s anything I’m not, it’s neutral heh. Being ok with two things but preferring one is having an opinion, I tell ya! And no, I wasn’t at Evo, I had some major business to attend to unfortunately.
How can you be ok with those things? Tokido 2007 and Choi 2008 are the worst fights I have ever seen.
No excuse!
Yeah, but there are only really two viable O characters.
I was really just trying to figure out why an inferior character loses a much more difficult “loop” that doesnt even work on everyone and is REALLY hard to set up in the first place while bison gets to keep his. Not saying bison is like WOAH BROKEN with his ToD’s but if youre going to remove the one thing that made T.hawk playable (at the top of the top levels, like toutanki and K and Inomata) then you should at least balance the spectrum and remove ToD’s like bisons and what not.
This raises an interesting question about theory fighter vs. tourney fighting.
If at the top TOP levels of play a game breaks down into absurdity does that invalidate the play styles of lesser skilled players? Not to say that Tokido’s play style is absurd, but it does seem that some players see it as “unfun”. For 99% of the people playing the game this won’t be an issue in their own matches, but it does put a dark cloud over the scene.
When deciding HD Remix vs. ST, which is more important? The absolute highest possible level of play, the practical limit of play, or the average play?
I say the practical limit. If I argued for the highest possible limit then the discussion would get stupid real quick cause the true “perfect player” absolute tier list of ST is nothing at all like the one that is applicable for tournaments.
The practical limit is what kind of things can actually be expected for a high skilled player to pull off in a tournament finals match. Since this is where everyone aspires to end up as a SF player it is very important that this goal is something fun and interesting. I love how dynamic the high level play is in SF2. I would hate to see ST or HDR eventually boil down to some strange glitch or particularly overpowered super like other games have. The changes of this happening to ST are virtually nil as the game is basically “solved” now, but the chances of in a couple of years HDR having a very hard tier list with somebody setting at the top on the God tier is imaginable. In that case the choice will made for us.
Now, the average play is not as important as the practical limit of play because it can create illusions. For HDR it is the placement of Honda in the tier list. Many many people who play this game put Honda very high on their tier list, including myself, but I know that at top levels of play he drops much lower. The techniques that are so successful on the middle levels of play that allow a Honda player to dominate in a group of other middle level players break down against top players. If the style of play of the average player were to be analyzed it would not show the true game and false assumptions might be made about which game is truly the more competitive of the two.
I just don’t think O Sagat is that dumb, I think he’s kind of interesting to use and play against. Super good for sure, but not a dumb kind. Walldive bs is the thing I’m most glad to have out of the game, it was my #1 complaint about ST, but I didn’t think it ruined the game and I don’t think it’s the main reason to like or not like ST or HDR.
Anyway, I’ve already said multiple times that I prefer HDR over ST except where character changes decreased uniqueness, like with Hawk spd whiff, Dictator devil’s reverse, Ken mk grab nerf, reversal supers, etc.
Also imo plenty of O characters are viable, just most aren’t more effective than their N version or different enough to be bothered with. My favorite character in ST is O Honda.
???
O. Sagat
O. Ryu
O. Guile
O. Balrog
O. Hawk*
O. Ken
off the top of my head.
*not sure about the tournament viability of O. Hawk, just know that he is sometimes preferred over N. Hawk.
Im not familiar with any special aspects of O. Ryu but why would anyone use O. Ryu over N. Ryu, like…ever?
Imagine if Ono’s words on stage was “well evo is better than nothing”… i’m sure that it’s just some internet issue and people don’t really mean “well SFHD is better than nothing” because that would be an insult. I would suggest some of these alternative phrasings to say what you probably mean:
“SFHD is great, there were over 300 people at the last event, and we really should start talking about how we can get this up to 1000 for next year"
or
"it’s a shame that the button config in SFHD and GGXX took 1 second and the other games were so awkward, also a shame that the ps3 version of games always have problems, we should move games to xbox, and get SFHD to 1000 people"
or
"it’s a shame that daigo liked SFHD and said it would do well in japan, yet there is noone to release it there, maybe someone should fix that so the japanese players will be able to enjoy the latest installment in the SF2 series, and move the game to xbox, and get 1000 people"
or
"It’s a relief to see a console SF2 game take off, everyone was really worried when almost noone liked DC ST in 2008, or when a couple people didn’t like CCC2 ST in 2007, or when people didn’t know what to make of AE, or PS1 ST, it’s good to see that SFHD is now almost unanimously supported by the now hundreds, soon to be thousands, of competitive sf2 players in the scene, and it seems like we can finally move on from this limbo that we entered when arcade ST became impractical, and now we can get the game released in japan, move evo to xbox, and get 1000 people”
It’s ironic that some folks are so against repeated tigers and wall dives but then don’t mind Ken’s throw loop. If we’re going by the “repeated stuff sucks” mentality, then that loop should also have been something to remove instead of toning the throw range down by 1-2 pixels, which didn’t really change anything.
It’s also strange that people rag on Tokido (pretty much a JP equivalent of one of our OG multi-game experts) when very few US players have been able to repeatedly wall dive in higher level tourney matches (even though claw is among the more popular tourney characters). Same with o.Sagat where only a handful of already good players kept showing that the character was dominant. So it’s obviously not a big deal until a certain level.
But then if you only cared about top level play, the tier charts (both US and JP) have already shown that wall dives don’t even make claw the top character. And many are claiming that losing wall dive loops doesn’t even really hurt his tier position in HDR, meaning they didn’t really help him that much either in ST. Otherwise, he’s notably worse off in HDR without them, a view which I’ve heard almost nobody mention.
So if the complaints aren’t strictly about repeatable abuse, normal play, or higher play, then what exactly are they about? If you really wanted to promote fairness and fun, I’d say that it’d be great if all repeatable traps were gone, which isn’t the case in either ST or HDR.
I guess simpler gameplay, faster startup and recovery on hadoukens (only the ordinary ones) and completely invulnerable shoryukens. He is better suited for the hadouken-shoryuken-sweep game. But I guess everything else is either the same or worse (even some normals are slower).
The damage on the first hit on Ken’s grab has also been reduced. The change in throw range, I guess, only helps the characters which have lower throw range, such as Guile, Dee Jay, Sagat, Hawk’s ordinary throws, Cammy and Fei. A number of them are low tier, so it is something acceptable.
As for Sagat and Claw, most people’s view is that balance should consider top level play. If it also helps ordinary players, great, but that is it. Claw being top tier just because of his ground game is something that can be used as an argument for removing the wall dive loop too, that is, he did not need it.
I would agree with removing the throw loops, but Sirlin decided to remove (or hinder) the loops from top tier characters and allow Ken, who is not top, to keep his. I believe this is an acceptable decision: he does not fix what is not broken.
It isn’t about which game has abuse-able strategies, it’s which one has less. For the record I say that Tokido’s style of play is perfectly valid and is just another one in the myriad of possible play styles for a pro ST or HDR player. And, just as in the case of players who rely on difficult combos but have weak strategies , it is wrong to be prejudiced against that play style.
It really really is about what the hardcore competitive community thinks is the most fun. O. Sagat players and Vega players have a ton of fun playing their style and I have a lot of fun fighting against it.
also, in regards to why you would play as O. Ryu. For variety is one reason. He’s just a different character than N. Ryu, worse in most matches, better in a few. Just as fun to play. I would play an O. character for the same reason I play any other low tier character.
Oh, and one more note. Repeated Wall diving and repeated tiger shots are actually pretty high level techniques to be successful with in a tournament. (You all know this). Timing the tiger shots and being tricky with the wall dives take just as much skill as anything else. Props to any player who can do this expertly, cause I sure as hell can’t.
When I said viable, I meant people actually using them in tournaments. Outside of O.Ken and O.Sagat, you don’t see anyone else outside token cameo appearances. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone use O.Ryu/Guile/Rog in a tournament vid and you RARELY see ether kinds of Hawk in ST.
Ok I’ve seen O.Rog once but he didn’t seem more effective than N.Rog.
You definitely see O Ryu, O Hawk, and O Honda. At the recent big Gian Recital ST tourney in Japan, there was O Sagat, O Ken, O Ryu, and O Honda and even a couple O Zangiefs for some reason. Also I’ve used, played against, or seen players use O Guile, O Sim, O Chun, O Boxer, and O Fei in tournaments. Anyways.
I have vids of the following “O.” characters being used:
O.Ryu
O.Chun
O.Guile
O.Hawk
O.Sagat
O.Honda
O.Ken
O.Fei
Ashitana (O.Ryu)
Moto (O.Ryu)
Jenety (O.Chun)
Kita (O.Chun)
Inro (O.Chun Li)
Yuuzuru (O.Guile)
Toutanki (O.Hawk)
K (O.Hawk)
Kunihata (O.Hawk)
Yuubou (O.Hawk)
GigaMSX (O.Sagat)
Muneo (O.Sagat)
Noguchi (O.Sagat
John Choi (O.Sagat)
Alex Valle (O.Sagat)
Kokoruru (O.Sagat)
Umehara (O.Sagat)
Shogatsu (O.Honda)
Gorilla Imo (O.Honda)
Bunkichi (O.Honda)
Edoya Bunkichi (O. E.Honda)
Washiga(ry (O.Honda)
Nagata (O.Honda)
Akashachi Kancho (O.Honda)
Mi (O.Ken)
Mr. Bob (O.Ken)
Isaji (O.Ken)
Love-love Atsushi (O.Ken)
Shuu (O.Ken)
Akynd (O.Ken)
Aniken (O.Ken)
Mattsun (O.Ken)
Aoreppu (O.Fei)
Ok, I admit I don’t view a lot of the more obscure japanese stuff. I totally forgot about Shogatsu and his crazy O.Honda.
Dude, even at the highest level of play, I hardly see Toutanki or Mayakon winning fights with that loop. That wasn’t the only thing that made Hawk playable, and even with it, he wasn’t going to tournaments at all (outside of Japan at least). To me, losing that loop was like losing a Cherry on a Sundae.
Again, I’m winning the same exact amount of fights with Hawk and Bison. Not bragging, but you know I’m serious business with both of those demons gridman. If there’s somebody Bison has a hard time with (Ken, Chun notably) I whip out Hawk. If Hawk is having trouble someone (Honda, Cammy), I take out Bison. Both characters have the same general idea; risk-reward, and that’s why I love and respect both characters so much.
For the sake of discussion about the Old characters can somebody please link a complete ST tier list? I mean one with all 32 characters. I bet several of the O. characters that don’t even get played are still going to make top 16 even if they are rarely used. O. Vega for example.
I would link it myself but for the life of me I can’t find one.
It sounds like you’re glad that they took it away and are saying R.Hawk is like some demi-god. That first sentence you said should be the indicator that it SHOULDNT have been removed.
Yes I know your hawk and bison are good. I dont know why, but I always fall for crossover splash, walk, 360. I always think NAH HES GONNA DP THIS TIME. WATCH.