Finally, a country that understands that true love knows no bounds.
Ha ha. I’ve gotten random Ochio’s several times and I’ve thought “What? Uhh, right I meant to do that!” Anyway, you could add a really small wiff animation and make it subtle (like maybe make the recovery like Honda’s crouching animation or something). That way it would be hard to punish ochio on reaction, but it would make ochio some what punishable on wiff for reversal purposes. Obviously you’d still have a of issues dealing with ochio throws, but this might at least mediate the problem.
It was just a half baked suggestion! Leave me alone! I just wanted to run off to Sweden with James Chen. Can’t a guylive out his dream of running away with his underaged (maybe unsuspecting, too, but that doesn’t matter his attitude will change) lover to a country where huge age differences are acceptable and live happily ever after since ochios aren’t retarded? :crybaby: No, Sir, you will not crush my dream! I throw down my gaming gauntlet and challenge you! First to 10 for James Chen’s love!
So not only did you suggest a completely unneeded change based purely on theory fighter that has far ranging ramifications beyond removing a corner loop, you’re also responsible for his incredibly goofy whiff pose?
On a more serious note, wouldn’t increased bounceback near the corner make a lot more sense? Or if that was too difficult to implement increased bounceback in general?
If the problem is a throw LOOP why does making it harder to get the FIRST throw make sense, rather than the subsequent throws?
One of the rules of good engineering is if you are trying to fix a problem fix it with the smallest scoped change you can. Removing a corner loop by adding a whiff is like swatting a fly with a howitzer.
All the T-Hawk players complaining about the throw whiff… do you realize this was put in to help you?
The thing is, the aim of this project was to balance the game at the highest levels. So if T. Hawk still had the loop, you know what O. Hawk gets to improve him? Nothing, because he’s already balanced. Apparently he’s A tier in Japan according to that tier list from awhile back. Since you however, reading this post, are not 1 of 2 people on Earth who can do the loop, you are going to be doomed to continue to lose with T Hawk.
The alternative is to remove the loop, and balance him around that. Now since he’s theoretically worse, you can give him some new tools to compete. So someone who cannot do the loop… namely you, basically only sees improvements. At the same time, we avoid the annoying detail of making T Hawk broken in the hands of 2 Japanese players (and any American who after Remix’s release actually gets the loop down).
Now, its a separate issue whether or not the boosts given to T Hawk are enough to compensate for the removal of the loop. Whether or not that’s true, I really don’t know… maybe he’s shit tier now because of the new dive, maybe not, but its a separate issue.
*again, the lack of a grab window on the new 360 does really suck, and was probably an oversight… its hard to think of stuff like that.
*also, there are other ways to remove the loop, but I personally think its lame to intentionally balance a character around a technical “trick” that’s totally invisible to someone who doesn’t read SRK. Give the 360 more corner bounceback and make it so non-negative edge 360 whiffs can block, and I suppose that would be a possibly ok alternative to me.
Hawk has more bounceback for his 720 SUPER in HDR than he did in ST so it was clearly possible to change.
Is this for real? Why wasn’t Honda given a whiff animation to help him? You do know the whiff hurts Hawk far more than just removing the throw loop right? Are you familiar with using negative edge with the command throw outside of just doing the loop?
No it was not. The aim of the game was to make it more beginner friendly which is where a lot of changes of HDR are centered around. The aim of HDR was not exclusively high level play but more of a blend of low, mid, and high level play as has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread already.
You honestly think that changing command throws to make them easier and maximizing SRK and SUPER input windows is helping to balance the game at high levels of play? Or making HHS and Legs easier to mash is a high level balance? Or making Tiger Knee motions QCF? Sirlin spent a lot more time focusing on pleasing beginner players than he did on the hardcore ST community in my opinion. Prove me wrong but in 15 years when has anyone wanted 360 Throw and Tiger Knee motions changed who has played at a high level? Hell or even mid level?
And please with the Japanese dick riding. I can do the loop. With consistency? No. You are making it sound like no one aside from Toutanki and K can possibly perform the loop at any point in their lives. My execution skills, because of playing Akira in VF, have been honed quite well. Are you saying that not a single person on SRK has the execution skills to perform the throw loop?
New tools like a weakened dive and a new SUPER command bug? Minimal active grab frames? Same horrible active hitboxes on his DP?
O.Hawk was A-tier on one single tier list from the Japanese. Every other list has put him in the basement or very near so saying he’s almost top based on one tier list is exaggerating highly. That’s not a statistically significant sample size and not a convincing argument.
Yes which is why more Hawk players should have been in the loop (pun alert) regarding Hawk’s balance changes to provide more feedback. It’s only an oversight because no one bothered to test it. Within the first few days of HDR being released people were discussing this in the Hawk thread. It’s not hard at all to realize things are not right with Hawk. Mid and low level players noticed his SUPER command issues immediately.
It’s obvious that Hawk wasn’t play-tested enough considering his SUPER command issues managed to get through to the final build of the game (and elude fixing in the latest patch). Zangief had the same issues with his new 720 motion but it was fixed in the patch so why Hawk’s motion problems are still present is baffling.
Why does the loop have to be removed? Hawk is still barely mid tier with a corner infinite that takes incredible skill to set up and execute. The way you talk about the loop you’d think that Hawk’s were dominating ST like 3S Chun.
Explain this, and it’s been asked in this thread before, If Hawk can’t have a corner throw loop because it’s a “guaranteed” win (but only with amazing execution), how come a character like Dictator can have multiple touch of death combos that are much easier to set up and execute that guarantee him the win by landing just a single hit? With Dictator (or any other character) you just need that one cross up or jump-in and it’s usually game over. It’s called touch of death because in one hit (plus followup combos) you can win an entire match. How is a touch of death any different from a throw loop? You get up a special sequence of (difficult) inputs and you win the round. These aren’t auto-win they and some are very tough to do.
When is the last time you saw a Hawk player execute the throw loop in the corner twice in one game? When is the last time you saw a Dictator or Blanka or Ken player win two rounds with dizzy combos? How come only the throw loop was taken out?
Sorry I should have said “the aim of the balancing aspect of the project”.
I dont think execution skills are primarly genetic. Just no one outside Japan has spent the huge amount of training mode time yet to prefect this.
I’m not aware of another reasonably recent tier list from Japan from a reputable source which included Old Hawk. Please point me to one if I missed it.
Dictator’s TOD… sure maybe I would have toned the dizzy down a bit to prevent the one hit kill.
I think Hawk’s was more important to remove though… it creates too difficult of a balancing problem. You want to make it easier for him to get in, but that could be broken in the hands of a rare person who can do the loop. So its hard to figure out where you should aim your balancing. One of the goals of the changes to dictator wasnt to make it easier for him to land jump ins.
Is it that you perform the move, and for X frames, the game checks to see if the opponent is a state eligible to be thrown? (ie, not in hitstun, not invulnerable, within range) If all X frames go by without the opponent meeting those conditions, it then goes to the whiff animation?
Active grab frames are the frames of animation where if you are within range of an opponent who is grounded and not in stun that will grab your opponent and throw him. And yes, if no active grab frames occur next to a throwable opponent, a whiff (with Zangief or R.Hawk) or something else will come out. The something else would be nothing (so defensive crouch) if you have Honda’s or ST Hawk’s negative edge, or the something else is a normal attack if you are using button down or performing a normal throw with any character.
Watch [media=youtube]6i1TPQQ_AVA"[/media] as Gief puts his opponent into stun and throws out his SPD before they return to normal state. As long as 1 of the 11 frames of his SPD animation overlap the the point between stun and normal state for the opponent, Zangief’s SPD will come out on the first frame, for a perfect tick. This means that Zangief players can perform perfect tick throws with more lenient timing than a normal throw.
With a normal throw, they come out on the first frame, so you must tick and then throw on the very first frame that your opponent recovers from block or hitstun to perform a perfect tick throw. This is how T.Hawk’s throw works in ST, you had three chances with negative edge for a perfect tick, and six chances if you pressed the buttons as well.
Yeah, that makes sense (although I was unaware that what I think of as the “whiff” animation actually is part the grab window, at least the first part of it).
What I was specifically wondering is that T. Hawk only has 1 “grab” frame? IE, the game only checks for eligible throw targets for 1 frame, and if it fails, he gets the whiff animation? Which explains why people complain about piano-ing actually being worse for him in HDR. If that’s the case I’m surprised the window wasn’t widened.
On shouldn’t attemt to change what they do not understand, without attemping to understand what they are changing.
That oversite should not have been made. Especially when there was a perfect model in Gief’s command throw. (In concept at least.)
Many OG Hawk players INSTANTLY saw the problem with the throw. The active window has been in the ST knowledge base for quite a while. YBH explains the properties of the whiff/ camand throw window. The resources where there for the designer. Why it was overlooked, only the designer konws.
“Half of being smart, is konwing what your dumb at.” -Solomon Short
What where is this tread going???
Perverts, you have it all worng. James was promised to me, through an arranged marriage in Oregon.
C’mon James, TELL THEM! There is NO reason to hide what we have any longer. What we share, can not be taken from us. :lovin:
Nothing turns me on more than a man who understands the juggle properities of every single special move in CVS1 and CVS2. OOOhhhhh, Baby!!! :hitit:
Don’t give Megaman false hope.:nono: You’re my special friend… to the end, James… or else… :chainsaw:
I believe, due to the fact that a character can not be thrown right after he gets up, Honda could use headbutt and have the move’s throwable frames ignored. After the two blocked hits, he would be safe. I also suppose a reversal SPD of Gief’s can answer any tick-throws from any character.
My bad. I knew it wasnt 100% from you but I remember you said you brought up the idea about it.
Honestly looking back on it, Hawk was really okay as he was. With a DP buff, o.hawks normals, 720, + no whiff, its really all you can do to him without overpowering him.
Well Hawk had some significant problems otherwise, is the obvious the answer. I agree with Brian etc that Hawk’s corner loop was dumb, but I definitely disagree that it’s a good thing that Hawk got a whiff. All I wanted to remove the loop was more bounceback after a successful typhoon; I think’s pretty cool that ST Hawk had guaranteed damage when he got in against most characters, and I wanted to keep that. That way, Hawk could be more of an all-or-nothing kind of grappler than Gief is, and if you buffed him up in a couple other ways to make up for his problems and the new loss of his corner infinite, I thought he could have been really fun and interesting and neither too good nor too crappy.
His whiff is one of the changes I like least in this game, many of which I think tend to reduce the cast’s uniqueness and therefore game’s interestingness. I’m not sure any other single change makes such a serious dent in a character’s uniqueness.
By the way I totally wanted no storing on ochio. While I think Honda’s defensive prowess against some characters tends to get overrated, I do also think it should have been nerfed. Again, I would have been totally fine if the ochio had disappeared entirely, but I at least wanted it to not be storable (and I would have probably slightly nerfed jab headbutt, too).
