Ultradavid I hear you on the uniqueness issue. I just think its ugly to have a character’s balance designed around a “glitch”, (Ok negative edge isnt strictly speaking a glitch, but you know what I mean). Its fine to have a character who automatically gets a 360 if he touches you, but if you want that, just program it in in a less secretive way, making it clear that that is what the move is supposed to do. ie, let him do the 360 motion normally, but be able to block somehow if it whiffs. Of course I suppose this kind of thing was never actually on the table…
Well that’s what I’m saying. It’s like there was theoretical interest online, but in the real world the game stayed pretty quiet.
I mean, obviously there was enough interest (and nothing else new) to keep it going in Evo, but I don’t recall “omg” fantastic numbers for other tournaments. Maybe my memory is off.
As it stands though I don’t think here at least there was any interest until HDR’s release approached, and those guys went over to HD anyway. I remember trying to get a tourney going around the end of 07/early 08 in ST, and even though quite a number of people turned out for the other things running, only me and one other guy actually showed for ST. Next one near the HDR release had some 12 people for ST, and the numbers stayed for HDR and slowly dwindled after SF4 dropped and everyone stopped playing everything else round here.
I am now officially creeped out by this thread.
- James
^^^^^^ LoLz … Well, I can’t say I didn’t have some fun!
Actually, people really over-exaggerate how powerful Hawk’s throw loop is. I think Claw, Guile, and Dhalsim might be the only character who are truly helpless. Like you said, Ken can Fierce DP the j.Jab, Blanka can ball the j.Jab, Gief and Hawk can reversal 360, Honda can headbutt, I’m pretty sure Hawk can not punish Fei’s short Flame kick in ST (I could be wrong on that), and most of the remaining characters (Chun, Boxer, Dic, Ryu) can escape with super. Sagat, Cammy, and DeeJay might also be helpless. Not 100% sure.
But the point is that the majority of the cast has a way to get out.
The numbers really did go up. I’ll see if I can get exact data from The Four Bosses.
I think hawk can st.rh feis flame kick in ST. If he can its tight timing.
Patiently awaiting your post/essay/book on why ST is better NKI.
Asked you at Stunfest but am curious about the long answer.
True, but still allows Fei Long to escape the corner SPD loop, which was the main point. It only really works on characters Hawk can still grab with an SPD or Knock-Down with enough time to Safe Jump again after blocking their Reversal, like Balrog’s Headbutt.
- James
all this theory fighter over a ‘throw loop’ that only like 3 people in the world could pull off consistently is annoying. Those 3 people were not even winning tournaments either.
A failed attempt at humor?
Well that was the idea anyway :). Perhaps he didn’t get enough to compensate for the removal of the loop, I already said that.
Also, I think my attempts at humor were at least somewhat successful.
That speaks to the success of SFHD. The internet has to complain about something, and most of the complaints are about issues that are pretty minor when placed in the grand scheme of things and next to most other revisions of fighting games.
It’s refreshing that the arguments aren’t like they were in ST, where the top T.Hawk questions were: “If youtube didn’t exist, and we replaced T.Hawk with a random select, how many people would notice that he wasn’t in the game? Would random select actually be more useful at a high level if it allowed the winner to switch to another random character, that as a bonus, couldn’t be T.Hawk?”.
If the most important T.Hawk issue today is having a contest to see who can make a 1p minigame sound the most like an interesting fighting game feature, there must not be any real issues to discuss for all these newly converted T.Hawk fans.
its not that hard. put a little time into it.
why can (bottom tier) hawks throw loop be removed but bisons 100 ToD’s can stay in?
Because no body wants a native american character to win a tournament (IF HE CAN !) j/k.
Actually it was removed because people (including Sirlin) came under a false assumption that the loop was 100% solid, it was as game breaking as Akuma’s air fb 
OK let’s say I agree, but if the negative edge 360/super loop is so easy why didn’t we see any T.Hawk’s in the top 20 players all these years ?
#1 he’s buttom tier, a loser #16.
#2 Nobody played T.Hawk here.
It’s funny how simple minded people can be fearing something they didn’t even experience, even in Japan before K’ and Toutanki you’d barely see T.Hawk’s in tournaments it was all about Ryu/Dictator/Boxer/Vega/Chun.
Just because we saw some good T.Hawk’s on Youtube doesn’t mean he’s jumped up the rankings and can blindly beat Akuma’s with the “100% loop”.
Just like the ancient O.Characters walk faster…“T.Hawk 100% loop” is another Made in America ST myth !
The problem is not that the loop was removed, the problem is that negative edge SPD was removed and a throw whiff was added with few grab frames to boot.
It’s not that you can’t throw someone three times in a row, it’s that each and every tick you attempt can now be safely reversed by every character in the game. (And nearly all of them will hit you) And if you time your tick a little too early you get a whiff animation with a large extending vulnerable box. And if you tick a little too late you give them more time for a non-reversal. And because the move lacks grab frames you’re nearly always either early or late. And all of Hawk’s normals on the ground that leave him close enough for an SPD also give him frame advantage, which means you can’t piano to try to throw as you finish the move either. (Always whiffs)
In order to force the other player to need a true reversal you have to have one-frame timing, without the help of pianoing - online.
That’s not in the corner after you already landed a throw, that’s every tick situation across the board. The removal of the throw loop effects a handful of players in a small percentage of matches. The SPD changes effect most rounds. Before the game came out I was for the removal of the corner loop. Dramatically nerfing the SPD wasn’t what I had in mind.
^ Yeah, I 100% cosign on everything in that. More bounceback after landing typhoon would have been enough.
By the way, I don’t think it’s that most of us thought the throw loop was gamebreaking, just that it was kind of stupid. I mean I’m totally down with having all-or-nothing characters, but that level of all-or-nothing-ness seems dumb. Plus, in general I’d rather play a strategy game than beatmania.
Also, do I like tod combos? I do not. Making 50% life combos also dizzy is overkill. I mean what, Bison, are you not satisfied with taking off half my life from an extremely ambiguous crossup that won’t lead to any damage to you if you screw it up? Honestly I fully expected tod dizzy combos to get taken out.
Also, I’ve been looped. I’ve also looped other people. It’s hard, and I don’t get it every time I try, but it’s not that hard.
YES. The rebalanced version of ST should have purged all that nonsense. Would have at least made for a very clear distinction between the two versions of the game. The fact that Dictator got nothing but improvements on top of such goon combos while T.Hawk (a low-tier character) lost his very difficult, far less practical “combo” is ludicrous. How about a no-dizzy dipswitch? 
I’ll never go back to ST… I love fake fireball too much.
So true! Ryan Hart vs Daigo Umehara Ryu mirror…all the baiting with fakes…pure gold.
Third-ed.