If you think that’s bad, I’m not even IN the lower spectrum.
Jiggly and I will most likely never agree on the dive issue but thats probably more because of different play styles I think. I will say that the Old dive would help against guile because getting a knock down against guile is virtually impossible with hawk. This is where the added range on DP would help BIG time. Its not even ONLY guile because hawk whiffs his DP against any character who sticks out a low poke or ducks but its not as hard to get a knock down on them as it is for guile.
Sounds like you tried harder 
Im not personally attacking Sirlin. I dont think he talked with proficient hawk players (if any) when he was making these changes. I know the whiff animation came from Brian. He told me one night at GU when we were playing casuals all night.
I dont think block damage on Low RH is needed.
Honestly, my “dream” version of hawk would be all of O.hawks normals, 720 (either motion, new or old, i dont care), both dives (different sound effects if you want), being able to actually HIT low/ducking characters with a DP, and no whiff.
Also - I have not heard any arguments in favor of the whiff, despite keeping even EASIER ToD’s (which is exactly what hawks LOOP is) that dont require pushing your opp to the corner with a bottom tier character.
Myself…I like the idea of all special move throws having whiff animations. I’m not a fan of option select in those situations. But, the one thing that I’d add to JigglyNorris’ and gridman’s list that I truly feel Hawk needs is…
MORE ACTIVE GRABBING FRAMES!!!
Granted…if your timing’s good, you don’t really need them, but I think that change is necessary because of the whiff animation itself. The whiff animation already penalizes you for missing the throw. The fact that the few active grabbing frames that are on the throw make timing those throws much more work than it is with Zangief or Honda is an unnecessary execution barrier, IMHO.
I realize the man’s not a bear wrestler or a sumo wrestler, so I’d be with the idea of him having less active grabbing frames than them, but he needs more than what he has…again, IMHO as an otherwise relatively scrubby Hawk player who will ToD you with the right crossup attack so don’t sleep on the skillllzzzzzzzzzzzzz, BAY BAY!!! 
Edit: It would’ve been nice if Hawk’s standing roundhouse would’ve been animated like a backwards sweeping mule kick in Super. You know? He starts it low and sweeps upward with it, taking out those pesky crouching turtles and jumping opponents. He definitely needs that standing roundhouse to hit low, though. Just looking for a way to make it actually look like it hits crouching characters. Ignore my babbling if you wish…
I totally think this is a large part of it. In some cases I bet it’s the whole reason.
As a Honda player I totally agree with this.
Actually in some cases, I get an Ochio when I really don’t want it. Say I bait a Guile into doing a flash kick, or Ryu into doing an uppercut. My best option in these cases is a normal grab into safe jump. But I trained my self long ago to always store the Ochio motion and sometimes when I go for a regular grab I end up getting Ochio instead. And most of the time I really need Ochio, I have to input the motion anyway. Like if I get crossed up. I would also like it if Honda had active grab frames on his throw.
I think all command throws should be uniform at the very least.
Active frames never really mattered. I grab with orgasmic precision most of the time. Ask Kuroppi.
Anyway, no, old Dive would not be good on Guile. Block and RH.FK every time.
I’m sure you do now. But I know I’ve seen more than a couple people complain about getting the whiff a lot when attempting to tick into his Typhoon.
My point exactly. I thought this game was trying to include new players, too! I totally understand that Jiggly and anybody else that’s either a master at ticking or one-frame links (yes…those skills are very closely related) can have that down by now, but don’t forget the new guys, too. Like I said…it’s just a little bit too hard to do right now.
Does anyone know how many active frames T.Hawk’s Typhoon and Double Typhoon have right now? Is it three frames…since that’s what he had in Super before he jumped? How many frames long are his whiff animations?
Myself, I would look at Zangief’s frame data on the SPD and, seeing that he gets 10 active grabbing frames, I would give Honda’s Ochio Throw (after stripping it of its storability and giving it a whiff animation…sorry) 8 frames and Hawk’s Typhoon and Double Typhoon 6 frames. Of course, I think it would also make sense that the fewer active grabbing frames you have, the fewer whiff frames you’re going to have, too. The quicker you reach out to grab, the quicker you’ll recover…and it kinda goes with the actual throwing motions of the throws we’re dealing with. So, I’d give Honda…maybe…18, 20, and 22 recovery frames on his :lp:, :mp:, and :hp: Ochio Throws, respectively, and Hawk would get…let’s say…14, 16, and 18.
Anyway, those would be starting points. From there, you can tweak it with gameplay testing, but I think the above could end up being practical.
Edit: Besides…how’s a noob supposed to know they actually did the throw motion right without a whiff animation? Yes…I know…training mode. There you go ruining Allen Iverson’s day again! “Not a game! We’re talkin’ 'bout PRACTICE! PRACTICE?” Don’t get him started.
True…but what if the Dive hit like an overhead like it should?
(Onaje pulls the string on the “Speak And Say” toy he has yet to buy for his son)
Arsenio Hall says, “Hmmmmm…”
gridman, you should’ve said that in the beginning. There would have been no arguing at all. The new Dive doesn’t fit your style. Im totally cool with that. I’m not saying the old Dive didn’t fit mine, but I really did wish it was safer when I started using Hawk in November of 07. I got what I wanted and now I’ve been able to do things that were difficult for me before.
I’ve never bashed the old Dive one time, but you’ve been bashing the new Dive quite a bit. I hope now you see why I haven’t.
His jump is three frames and is not a way of telling how many active grab frames he has it is merely the window of opportunity you have to press or release a punch button before he jumps if you’re doing a standing command throw.
I assume his throw in ST had only one active grab frame because it had no whiff and normal throws have no whiff and come out immediately on the first frame (hence being able to do reversal throws). And if a normal throw doesn’t come out on the first frame (because of range or block stun or whatnot) it option selects into a normal attack.
T.Hawk has two option selects with his command throw, the first is negative edge, allowing for an option select between a command throw or standing/defensive crouch. The second option select is (button down) throw or attack (just like a normal throw works). I would assume Hawk’s command throw behaves (with the exception of negative edge) just like a normal throw in ST. Meaning only one grab frame on the first frame of the throw.
Calculating the frames for the whiff would require simply a capture card at 60 frames per second and then manually counting the frames of animation that Hawk is whiffing I would imagine.
Those people just need to learn his timing and stop complaining.
Im bashing the new dive because to me, it really does suck. I havent been personally attacking you (not trying to if it seems it) about it but rather discussing it back and forth. I dont think there is anything wrong with that but (obviously) there is some stuff we arent going to agree on about each dive due to different playstyles. Ex: The grey area in deciding what dive would be better for each matchup. Obviously, we can both sit here and agree that the new dive helps tremendously in the sim match and against bison. On the same token, I think we can both agree that the Old Dive helped him more against fireballers. However there are those matchups where it comes down to each players playstyle and personal preference on which dive theyd like to have.
Er, I didn’t mean to imply that giving Hawk a whiff animation was totally from me. I just chatted with him at some point and tried to convince him that it should be put in. Of course its probably something he had to have considered anyway since its an obvious possibility. He thought it wouldn’t be technically feasible though, and I suggested stealing animation from another move.
For all I know he had totally forgotten about this conversation by the time he got around to actually implementing it but anyway…
I do think Hawk should have been given a whiff animation. If you’re making an upgrade to a game, removing a guaranteed infinite on most of the cast seems like a no brainer. Of course, a separate issue is whether or not the character is balanced after this and other changes have been made. Whether Hawk is balanced or not in HDRemix, I honestly have no idea.
It is unfortunate though that Hawk didn’t get a throw window like Zangief, so its hard to make a tight tick. Honestly I didn’t think of this possible problem of adding a whiff animation, and probably neither did Sirlin.
Where did ST have this strong scene up to HDR’s release? It sure as hell wasn’t around here. Cali is about all I can think of. I suppose the few dozen people who played it regularly on GGPO classify as a scene…
At least as far as this place is concerned, ST was dead on arrival, and never really took off. At the very least, the same people who played in the ST tournament held right before HDR came out were the same people who ended up playing HDR, so…I think they’re just SF2 fans in general.
Everything you just said is stuff I already know. What I asked however, was…how many active grabbing frames does Hawk’s Typhoon have now…as in…in HDR? Zangief’s SPD, unless it has been changed, has 10 active frames. How many does Hawk’s have? If you know, please post the answer…not a guess…not how to get the answer. Post…the…answer.
I’m sorry if that sounds snippy, but I was sure that my question was very clear.
Well, duh, Bob. Obviously, that’s all they can do. But, even with that, if you had a chance at remaking this game yourself (once you humbly admit, as you have before, that it wouldn’t be an easy task), wouldn’t you think that Hawk’s Typhoon needs just a wee bit more active throwing frames, given that the whiff is already a stiff enough penalty for missing the grab?
Remember, I’m thinking of the newbies, too. Learning the timing wouldn’t be a problem for me. It would be a problem, however, for the casual player. I’m not saying make it super easy. I’m definitely not saying it should be as easy as Zangief’s SPD ticks. I do think that he should have the hardest time of landing those ticks, but not as hard as it is now.
IMHO, of course. You’ve obviously shown that, at high levels of play, the timing doesn’t cramp your style.
Totally disagree with this, and not just about command grabs either. If there’s one thing I don’t want nearly anywhere, it’s uniformity of moves. I want the grappler characters to have different combinations of whiff/no whiff, bounceback/no bounceback, lots of range/alright range, etc, as long as the throws still end up pretty reasonably balanced. I think it was cool that in ST one 360 character had a whiff and another didn’t.
Hawk’s ST spd wasn’t balanced, he had a corner infinite. But now he’s at the exact opposite of the spectrum; he has big bounceback and he has a whiff, and also only a single active frame. His spd has gone from probably the best to probably the worst command grab. This is obviously a bad situation, especially for a character who, unlike Honda, really really depends on that command grab. Honda doesn’t even need a command grab and he’d still be really sick up close (heck, O Honda was sick up close in ST).
You make a good point and I think you’re right. However, I don’t think Honda should be able to store his throw. Whether he has a whiff or not I guess could be left up for debate. It’s not like he really needs the Ochio anyway. His normal throws/grabs usually leave him setup better for a followup attack anyway. :wgrin:
I do agree with this, having only one active frame and a whiff is huge in of itself. Zangief has 11 (or so) frames where he’s grabbing and Honda can just mash punch, they can screw up the timing a lot and it’ll still work out for them. Hawk has to get it perfectly right, or (potentially) he gets owned.
If Hawk’s corner infinite was so powerful how come Hawk players never won any major tournaments with it?
Well, if you gave him the whiff, you could leave the Stored Oicho. The reason stored Oicho is so blatantly wrong to me is the fact that if you hit Punch, you don’t LOSE the store. But if you added a whiff, hitting Punch would make Honda whiff from the stored Oicho.
Of course, that probably also means that you’d be whiffing Oichos accidentally left and right. So nevermind. Probably are better off getting rid of store if you added a whiff.
- James