Decoy wins. Flawless Victory. Ultra Combo. Perfect.
In VST, if Hawk negative edged his SPD attempt and ended the motion at a blocking position AND his opponent pulled off a successful reversal, Hawk would just block. If the opponent didn’t pull off a successfull reversal, they would’ve got SPD’d. Now in HDR, Hawk has a wiff, removing the negative edge option from tick throws.
Actually, not easier, but possible. In VST Hawk could negative edge Typhoon to option select. If the enemy is throwable, he throws, if he isnt (i.e. doing an invincible reversal) he just blocks and punish. Thus, it was impossible to reversal Typhoon attemps in VST, and this was due to the no whiff Typhoon. In HDR, if the enemy does a reversal, Hawk is hit out of the whiff.
Edit: Studtrooper just answered the same question…
Honda can do this too except it actually puts him back out now right? Is it possible at all for honda to close the post oicho distance?
Honda can’t loop like he could in VST, but he still can go for offensive negative edge ochio throws. They are harder to do IMO than Hawks.
To me, it’s not so much that my favorite character got nerfed (Chun-Li); that’s fine. What bothers me is that I think some of the nerfs were just…I dunno, were they really necessary?
Take the super for example. Sure, its damage could use a bit of a downgrade. Fine. But, why make it so that the damage is lowered, you can juggle less AND they’re harder to do on some characters, and other characters get hit less times unless the super connects at specific ranges? Why not just remove the juggle property of the super and keep the damage nerf, and call it a day? The idea of the nerf is fine, but now the move is inconsistent.
Or, the Air SBK. This doesn’t really give Chun-Li a big advantage. The best thing she can do with is now is do one after a headstomp to possibly avoid getting DP’ed. But, the con is, it made the worst aspect of her worst matches (corner fireball traps) even harder to deal with. Why? If that was already very difficult for her to deal, did it need to be worse?
These are the kinds of changes that confuse me. I think that most of the changes aren’t like this though, and I would probably rather be playing HDR.
I’m sure quite a few of the people who are arguing against HDR come from the perspective you’re describing, though most I would guess are a little less extreme (there are actually not very many that I hear outright disliking HDR as a whole). I can only speak for myself though, so here goes:
In ST, I main Dee Jay, and beyond him, I play a pretty mediocre N. Sagat and Cammy. I’d say Dee Jay fares better in HDR than ST, due less to his own changes, and more to the general weakening of the top tier. R. Sagat is worlds better than N. Sagat–in fact, if I could somehow place R. Sagat in ST, I’d prefer that over the other two based on that change alone. Cammy has somewhat better matchups in HDR as well. If it were just an issue of my characters; standings, then I should prefer HDR over ST, hands down.
The reason I don’t is more complicated than something I can readily sum up in one single complaint. There are certainly some character-specific complaints that I have, but others usually sum those up better than I do myself. Generally speaking, I liked that ST featured many tactics that were dominating, and that often times the fight was in setting these up, from the other perspective, preventing them. There are certainly some that I could see being tweaked toward being a little less effective (O. Sagat’s Tiger Shots, Claw Wall Dive etc.) The thing is, if HDR were all minor tweaks, I’d probably like it more than ST. If it were a complete overhaul, I’d probably be able to appreciate it a bit more than I do, whether I liked it more or not. It’s not quite either of those though. HDR sits right in the middle between a tweaked version of ST, and a wholly new iteration of SF2. When I play HDR, I feel like I’m playing ST with the danger knob turned down a few degrees. Setting up those amazing advantages is still important, but it’s not quite as imperative. Avoiding specific setups is similarly important, but not the intense grab for footing that it was in ST. As I’ve said before, I’m trying very hard to avoid using the term “watered down,” because that does carry a negative connotation, but when I play HDR, I feel like the enjoyment I get out of that, I get a bigger dose of from ST.
And I’m aware that my opinion isn’t universal by any means. It is probably in the minority. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with a game that is more beginner-friendly, or has fewer dominating tactics, and the ones that are there are less so. It’s just that there is a very specific flavor to ST that you don’t find in other fighting games, and in the process of fixing some of the things in ST that could have been better, some of that flavor got lost in the process. And it’s not even that I think HDR is especially bad. I actually enjoy the game quite a lot (even with a little less of the ST flavor, it is still very tasty), it just stands a bit behind ST for me.
^here were the things i hated most about ST:
O.Sagats fireballs
Wall Dive shenanigans
Balrog and Sims throw ranges
here’s what i like about ST:
everything else.
I understand people having gripes with the others character’s changes, but having the top 4 in ST getting those much needed nerfs IMO makes me like HDR more (plus the fact that I can play more people in HDR than in ST and HDR looks better). I used to main a scrubtacular blanka in ST and switched to Vega when HDR came out.
I only play Chun in ST. 
Then how is it possible that an old, ugly-ass game like Super Turbo managed to have such a strong scene, well before Remix was even announced?
If you’re playing a fighting game simply because it’s new and pretty, you’re playing fighting games for the wrong reasons. Likewise, if you quit playing a perfectly good fighting game simply because it’s old and ugly, you’re not playing fighting games for the right reasons.
QFT.
Anyways, I think ST and HDR are equal. ST has its shenanigans (O. Sagat, Claw wall dives, Boxer safe headbutt, all that stuff), but HDR made those odd changes (Chun-Li in general, Dictator basically only getting buffs for being a decent character). Overall, I wouldn’t really care if they switched HDR to ST, because they are equals to me.
I believe the changes could be more subtle. I’d rather only have the retardedly good and the useless stuff changed.
Word. One could make an analogy to music, album release date and artists’ looks, but it is a waste of time to try and reason with people. I wish people would understand this shit at the nearby arcade saloon.
To be fair though, I’d say the majority of people playing fighting games are playing them for the wrong reasons. I mean, I love ST, so don’t get this as somehow criticizing the game itself for its age, because I’m definitely not, but there are a lot of people who don’t want to play old games anymore. While the game itself is just as good with age, the number of people who follow it and participate in it isn’t, and if you don’t have competition, well, you don’t have a game.
So in that sense, and to that degree, I think he’s right. The age of the game does matter to the community, which is a shame.
You as a hawk player are perplexed as to why OTHER hawk players are complaining that the whiff that was added to “balance” out hawk and remove his ToD does not work properly? Really? No one seems to argue against the fact that if Hawk can have his LOOP removed, why does bison, ken, gief, sagat, blanka, dj, and others get to keep THEIR ToD’s? Its the same thing except <OPINION WARNING> hawks is harder to execute </OPINION WARNING>. Also its really evident that sirlin didnt take sound advice from people who actually played hawk otherwise we wouldnt have the new dive. Instead we would have a dp with slightly added range.
Lol, that DP has quite enough range on it. In fact, that’s what my opponents hate about it. If it were to get tweaked at all, a little more priority would be perfect.
As for Hawks ToD, that thing is easier than ever to land in this game. Unless I missed something, I’m starting to think you’re looking for something to complain about.
Are you serious? Have you tried hitting any low poke with that? I think you really need to get over the fact that hawk did not get the buffs he needed. More priority is not really needed. It kills jumpins but loses to meaty DP’s. It beats just about any other meaty move you want to try to throw at hawk (even headbutts and balls).
Im talking about hawks loop and why it was removed , not the crossup splash, cl.mk fierce dp. The argument is essentially that if hawk cant have his DIFFICULT TO LAND AND SET UP loop, then all other ToD’s should be removed.
Pfffttt get out of here with that non-sense. There no right and wrong reason to play any games. I play fighting games cause they’re competitive and its a relatively inexpensive hobby compared to the other things men aged 16-32 could do.
I even said it in my previous post, I like HDR more than more than ST cause I think its more balanced AND because its the most played version of SFII AND because I think its pretty.
Having Hawk’s uppercut hit low is something that should have been given to him. I would definitely sign up for that.
But overall, HDR Hawk has easier matches than ST Hawk IMO. And his new dive makes for more interesting gameplay IMO than the all or nothing like he had with his old dive. For me, he is more interesting and fun to play than ST Hawk and is capable of winning more matches.
OMG! That makes me feel old. I’m at the end of that spectrum…
^ lol the numbers were random, i just assume thats the 90% majority of the age group of people who probably play fighting games. nothing personal
I’m not even in that range. 
Hopefully, that means people think I’m 15.
Well, guess I am lucky then… I still have a wee bit longer before I am phased out… :xeye: