I don’t think they gave him a whiff for the easier motion. I think the logic was if gief has a whiff, why doesn’t hawk (Don’t quote me on that, maybe I’m wrong)? Which brings honda to question…
Speak for yourself man!
Do you know how hard that shit is for regular people?
I have been trying to use hawk casually to no avail.
360 is just TOO hard on pad.
I’m not a casual ST or HDr player…i’m kinda hardcore.
WHY should i have to practice in training mode to even be able to use the 360 for Thawk?
My only hdR beef with Hawk is that his whiff animation looks like he’s walking like an Egyptian.
The whiff was added to make sure he couldn’t do the Safe Jump SPD Loop in the corner anymore. By making him whiff, you CAN reversal the SPD attempt.
- James
That was clearly a huge problem in dire need of fixing, what with everyone maining T. Hawk and winning tournament after tournament all across the globe and everything. Thank the lord T. Hawk’s reign of terror has finally ended!
To be a bit more serious, T. Hawk lost a move that knocks down and to get cornered by Hawk you have to screw up multiple times. If you get stuck in a corner throw loop and your opponent can pull it off you deserve it, and realistically those two things rarely happen.
To me this is the same logic as removing powerful crossup combos because once you start getting hit by them it’s game over. Solution: don’t get hit by them. To corner someone who is trying to stay out of the corner Hawk needs to do a lot of work and get lucky with a couple of psychic moves.
The throw loop was realistically a non-issue, in his writeup Sirlin even admits that only a couple of Japanese players abused it for an amazing single third place finish. Whereas now people reverse out of SPD ticks all the time which is a real and constant problem.
Edit: If you constantly found yourself being cornered and throw-looped by T. Hawk you could have tried harder.
<3 you marg. Thanks for taking what I was going to say and posting it before me. I dont really have anything to add at all. I mean, shit you even used the analogy I was going to use.
I will say this though - walking up and 360’ing in VST is fairly hard. I got so use to the new motion, that I had trouble doing it for a little while when I was goofing off in Classic. Its weird to get use to at first because I dont think you walk up 360 like that in any other game but it is fairly difficult.
Yeah, t hawks game was pretty interesting in super turbo.
Get zoned all day and die, or loop for 100% in the corner. This is pretty good.
I think Sirlin exaggerated a little when he first made that statement, but it basically was Hawks game. More risk than Bison in my opinion. But I do like how its not really about that anymore, and I have been winning more with him than I did in ST. Sirlin did something right.
Problem here is that the whiff is buggy, sometimes the whiff would come out even if you perfectly time the Typhoon It seems to happen more often with Strong/Fierce Typhoons than Jab. Sirlin didn’t explain how was the whiff animation programmed what variable made the engine think ok the move should whiff now.
Also people here really made T.Hawk’s safe jump loop into something a 100 times worst and game breaking than Akuma’s Air FB or Vega’s Wall dive games, while in reality it’s not that easy to do cause it’s hard to get in against most of the cast for T.Hawk.
I don’t mind a whiff for T.Hawk, it’s the logical thing to do with every special throw after VST, but It’s very badly executed in HDR.
nah negative edge doesnt get your normals, just specials.
If you’re talking about using negative edge only, you wouldn’t get a punch. You’d still get the jump, or not depending on what direction you end with. You can’t use negative to throw out normals. If you piano on the other hand what said should hold completely true as far as I know.
To add this point: It took me forever to realize why people complained about T. Hawk’s wiff animation so much. I didn’t realize until a few weeks ago that no wiff give T.Hawk Ochio-esque tick setups. I only wish I had played around with this more when I played ST.
Personally, I hated the fact that it didn’t wiff because 3/4th of the time I’d just jump in the air like a moron. I think part of the reason was to help baby players like me that couldn’t 360 with Hawk but didn’t really want to jump in the air. Now that I know about the whole abuse no wiff thing I’m not sure how I feel because I still have trouble with Hawk 360s. I guess from my standpoint the wiff animation is pointless because the new motion won’t make you jump by accident. I dunno. I’ll just stick with Boxer. 
I beg to differ! I’ve been playing ST since forever and I honestly like HDR more. Akuma aside, the game is simply more balanced than VST IMO. I honestly think that there will be a shift in TT’s even if it is ever so slightly. Let’s give it more time. Sheesh we gave ST years before we came up with solid tiers yet here we are complaining about balance and misc. things on a game that hasn’t been out 1/14th as long as ST. Go figure.
I’m noticing a trend of players that main either upper to TT characters that are doing most of the complaining. Are they REALLY giving us truly unbiased opinions on HDR as a whole, or are their sentiments on HDR stemming from how or why their character of choice got nerfed? Not flaming, just stating what I’ve been reading through this and other threads.
Just hear me out for a sec…
Here are some of the upper to TT’s in VST:
Sagat
Boxer
Dhalsim
Vega
Chun
If you play any of the characters above, ask yourself this…
Do I not like HDR because the game as a whole did not meet expectations or am I more unhappy with the fact that my character of choice was changed/nerfed?
NOTE: I know other lower tiers have been discussed at length but I’ll leave that for a separate response.
OK, now I’ll give you my terrible analogy (I suck at analogies lol)
In VST, I play Blanka and my opponent plays Vega. Sucks for me no?
HDR takes away his walldive shenanigans aka his gun and gives him a baseball bat instead. Vega player looks at the baseball bat and says… “How the hell am I supposed to beat Blanka with just a bat?”
So, instead of adapting and revising matchup strategies, the Vega player says “I prefer VST over this mess of a game”
Somebody help me out and tell me non of the mentioned is true. The more I read these threads the more I believe that I’m not that far off the mark with my assessment.
Again, not flaming anyone in particular - just stating what it looks like to me.
HDR is a game meant for scrubs who don’t want to practice and don’t want invest time in getting good at the game. I don’t see a nice way of saying it really. For 15 years the commands for ST were never changed and no one spoke about changing them or complained about how hard they were. If you wanted to get good at ST, you had to shock, play the game and get better and actually practice. And if you actually spent the time playing ST, things like command throws, reversals, tiger knee motions, safe jumps, became easier and easier over time. People still mess these motions up but they screw up less and less as they play more and time goes on.
Scrubs don’t want to practice and change themselves to get better and improve. They want the game to change for them and refuse to practice or learn. They want to play the game for the first time and be mid-level instantly. The fact is that not every Hawk player can do a command throw after playing the game for a grand total of ten seconds. Sirlin wanted people to be able to immediately pick up the game and start performing command throws to reward their laziness and stupidity. Since when were fighting games all about mind-games and not about execution as well? If Sirlin could change baseball he’d make it so that if you knew the pitcher was throwing a 90mph fastball as long as you guessed correctly you shouldn’t have the required dexterity to actually hit the ball. 
Baseball like fighting games should be all about mind-games.
The people who mash buttons furiously hoping to get an SRK and people who cry and whine that T.Hawk’s throw is too hard are the people Sirlin loves to introduce to fighting games. For some reason he thinks that the people who want easy execution are the same people who will love playing a mind-game intense fighting game like ST. If people are screaming about how hard ST’s execution is, does anyone honestly think these are the right people to introduce to fighting games? They complain about inputs? Imagine the complaints they are going to have about tick throws, or cross ups…or losing?
These scrubs don’t want to take the time to understand that a command throw for Hawk is usually done after a tick. Instead they just want to walk up and throw someone with his command throw like you would a normal throw. They can’t even set up a throw correctly and execute it, how are they supposed to understand the mind-games of fighting games if they don’t understand the absolute basics?
How is it the logical thing to do when Hawk and Honda’s command throws didn’t have whiffs in VST? If it made sense to give special throws a whiff why not make Honda’s whiff as well? Why not make normals throws whiff so you can’t option select them? Option select throws are a major part of ST and SF2 in general.
If you don’t mind a whiff for Hawk then you clearly aren’t playing him against high level competition enough. Someone who is good enough to perform consistent reversals is going to make your life miserable. I get within throw range far less often as R.Hawk then I do with O.Hawk. And now I get hit with reversals out of my throw attempts 100% more often because of the new whiff. And Hawk players aren’t supposed to mind that?
So you are a semi-hardcore player who can’t even get a command throw off with ST Hawk? And you are a hardcore pad player who hates practicing? 
And what is this regular people nonsense? I work my ass off in NYC 12 hours a day for five days a week. Somehow I found the time to learn how to play Hawk, and Dictator, and Wolf, and Akira, and V-13, etc. and I’m not a superhuman.
Maybe instead of complaining more about Hawk you should practice and read about playing as him. :nono:
This. All touch of death combos should have been removed from HDR because they created an auto-win situation. Once you got that first hit (all it takes it one) then it was the round for you. Hawk’s corner throw loop was removed because it was deemed too powerful and created an inescapable scenario for the opponent. But once you get hit with the first hit of a touch of death combo there is no escape as well. No escape unless your opponent botches the execution for the second combo.
Touch of death accomplishes the game thing as the corner traps. Once get you get the proper set up, and if your execution is right, then you should take the round easily. Hawk taking another unnecessary nerf.
Oh for god’s sake shut the fuck up about “scrubs”. This is the second wall-of-text rant you’ve written about it.
Go back to ST if you’re so offended that the bar has been lowered for new players. Or better yet run some “do perfect 360 motions” competitions if it’s that important to you.
I know it makes you white-knuckled with rage that somebody can do a SPD now without putting in hours and hours of practice, but somehow you miss that the same players who were the best at ST are still best at HDR. If you’re losing to somebody who just learned how to SPD you suck as a player anyway. If you’re still beating him why do you give a shit?
Um…because against high level players my Hawk gets destroyed by reversals extremely often.
Tetris gets graphical updates all the time, I don’t see anyone playing the black and white version on their gameboys anymore. Hell, they even have some hybrid versions that have 10 pieces total that are popular. Same thing with baseball, rule changes, new team mascots and logos, different leagues, wiffle ball hybrids, etc.
ST has been and looked exactly the same for 14 years. That’s a pretty long time, EXPECIALLY in the gaming industry where new games come out every week. The only thing relatively exciting in the ST community for the past 5 years is the debate over which version to play on console (which was more annoying than anything). The only reason ST has stayed as long as it did is cause no new fighting games worth giving a damn about came out after CVS2 (gg is the exception but i don’t really see it as being embraced by the sf/srk community)
I’m 100% positive that if HDR hadn’t come out this would’ve been the last year SFII would be at evo just cause all the new games that are coming out. And why is that? This is probably SFIII’s last year too. and CVS2 is officially dead cause its no longer going to be a featured game. Why are these old, yet treid and true classics, being taken out of evo?
The age of the game DOES matter in the fighting game community.
^^^ Great points. As I said in a pior post I am letting the issue go. If it is HDR or nothing. I’ll take HDR. I fall into your list of players who play TT. I acctually don’t mind the nerfs.
Down Grades:
*Less Noogie Range, check.
*Weak(er) super damage, check.
*New weaker super hit boxes, check.
*Glitchy combo-ability for super, check.
To be honest, if all the rest of the TT was nerfed, then Sim needed some nerfs. Sirlin did give Sim some upgrades. The worst nerfing happened to Rog. He had NO upgrades/ trade offs. I am sure the Chun players, would argue the same for Chun. Some ppl, actually like the New SBK. But, if NKI says it is bunk, I am going to have to side with him.
Sim Upgrades:
*New motions, I never had a problem with the old ones, but it helps less coordinated/ new players. Ok, check
*Easier Teleport. Check, Check, check!
My only problem is that new super is glitchy. Right after the super flash, I have been swept and low tigered out of the super many times if they have a hit box out touching my feet while I have “full invincablity.” It could be a roll back issue, if that is the case then it is a mute point.
So I can tell you, my reasons for not prefering HDR over ST, is not the nerfing of Sim. He is still very strong charcter. He may not be number one on the tier list. But, who the F**K cares. To argue where exactly he is, is only picking at a point. Looking for an exact tier placement is pointless. Most of his match ups now are split about even (4-6, 5-5, 6-4), or lean towrads him (7-3, or better). I don’t thinks he has any 3-7 matches. His worst match up is Honda, and that MIGHT be 3.5-6.5, and that is really PUSHING it. I’d feel more comfortable puting it in the 4-6/5-5 range. Whatever the match-up list are going to eventually say about Honda’s advantage in the match up, it’s going to be fair and marginal.
If you are looking to the reasons why I prefer ST. There are tons of posts all around the forum that explain my point of view. But, if the scene needs support to stay at Evo, I’ll leave my opions in my old posts. There is no reason to push the argument any further for now. I just wanted to say, it is not b/c of the the changes made to HDR Sim. 
Then the problem is you, not Hawk. Im not saying its a piece of cake Typhooning at higher level’s, but if you just mix it up instead of doing J.jab, Cr.jab everytime, you’ll have a way better chance in higher level’s of play. Hell I was doing this to afro’s Balrog on Saturday and even he was having a hard time.
I agree with this but it’s not just the players using upper and top tier characters. The loudest complainers seem to be the ones who feel their character got weakened/nerfed regardless of tier.
The T-Hawk complaints are the ones that really perplex me. I have to agree with JigglyNorris one hundred percent. You need to stop being so predictable and start mixing up your ticks more if you’re getting reversed that often on your typhoon attempts.
Evo ST last year has like 120 entrants. People were saying OMG, there are so many entrants for ST this year!!
Evo HD Remix this year has like, what, 300 pre-regs?
The SRK old ST forum currently has 11,442 posts, since last November. The SRK HD Remix forum currently has 32,571 posts, since 2006.
You can prefer old ST to HD Remix for some reason or another, but saying that HD Remix “killed ST” is just absurd. HD Remix generates way more interest than old ST currently does, or even did within the last few years.
EDIT: Nevermind, durrr, was thinking of the completely wrong thing.