I believe his 2 frame invincibility occurs while he is still on the ground, so you can time your attack to hit him after the invincibility while he’s still grounded, giving you the tick throw and combo options you normally have. This was my understanding, but maybe this isn’t the case… does anyone know for sure?
The DR escapes ground attacks easily. Once he’s airborne though, any attack will stop him. Sometimes I’ll go through Guile’s LK cross-up, other times I won’t though. DR has some weird properties sometimes. Btw, somwbody said this earlier, what’s wrong with Bison being top tier?
Brian brings up a good point, if he gets the reversal, you just get a lousy short worth of damage, lol. Actually, I think you can just jump on him again though when you get the air reset and he won’t have his charge =) If so, DR has no use as an anti crossup. Can’t really test this now, but this could work
Where, exactly, does he write that short drill -> front kick is safe? In fact, he writes that the front kick is NOT safe on block (which the venerable James Chen has lamented many times in these forums).
No offense, but this what I’m talking about. People who don’t actually play Cammy, but who are nonetheless comfortable pontificating on her finer points, and advising everyone else, because of something that they read somewhere.
Maybe you’re confused by the fact that Cammy could drill -> cannon spike in beta tests. Sirlin explicitly stated that she could do that before, but that he took it out. Read the blog more carefully, man.
Why do I bother?
Again: If the opponent BLOCKS, these three characters have nothing (maybe almost nothing, in Blanka’s case) to fear, regardless of where they were when they started the dashing attack.
If Cammy’s drill gets blocked, she can be hit for free. She has to fire it off from a particular range, she can’t simply drill from wherever and be OK if the other guy blocks.
I’m starting to suspect that a lot of you are Blanka, Boxer, or Honda players, and that you don’t like someone converting what you thought was skill on your part into a character design advantage. Sorry, but Cammy’s dashing attacks are NOT as good as theirs. It takes significantly more brain power and skill to use cannon drill effectively.
As I wrote above, Boxer is most definitely a skill character – certainly much more than Sirlin Blanka or Honda, that’s for sure.
Time will tell.
You got a thing for not reading posts thoroughly?
I think it was abundantly clear in my original post that I am a Chun-Li player.
I also play Honda fairly frequently, which I have written elsewhere in these forums.
Um, yes. Honda has nothing to worry about if the other guy blocks his headbutt, and Blanka’s dash is also free in most cases (there are still a few cases in which he can be hit after a blocked roll). Boxer’s dash is also totally safe on block. They cannot be punished with anything worse than block damage – unlike Cammy, who can be hit easily and cleanly after a blocked drill if she does it from the wrong range.
Question of the year. I cannot figure out why this is so hard for people to accept. He was always better than people expected and now that he has an escape option, however imperfect people think it is, it definitely rounds out his only weakness. Not trying to bring the debate up again, but it’s weird to me how adamantly people deny the fact that he is top tier or top tier material. It’s not SF4, you don’t have to have a dragon punch to be top tier.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
There’s nothing wrong with Dic being top tier.
It came up because it is a clear example of poor/illogical design choices. Chun and Dic were about even in ST, yet Chun got nerfed badly while Dic got beefed up.
“The cannon spike is still often safe, so she didn?t even trade that much away.” Its in the conclusion so read alittle farther down in the article.
Thanks for assuming, I play almost strictly ken, and you are still ignoring the fact that you don’t have to always block these attacks, that’s what rapid jabs are for or cr.mk for boxer.
I don’t visit the honda forum very much because I don’t play honda, and I haven’t seen a honda do much lately that makes me think oh I need to see what they are thinking. Also in your original post you made a reference to every character, regardless of the paragraph of chun li, the entire post detailed everyone, so I’m not going to go out of my way to assume which character or characters you use. Except you definitely went into defense mode about cammy.
Furthermore, your “quit f*ckin turtling” just makes me think of the people that send me hatemail when I zone them with ken. So you play honda, who is a surpreme turtle against anyone without a fireball, and you play chun who can be played as rushdown or charge.
I happen to find it irritating when I play someone and they tell me to stop turtling, so yes I have a negative reaction to a statement like that. Not to mention your immediate “elitist” going on the offensive attitude.
However my statement still stands according to sirlin’s article’s conclusion, the lk drill > thrust kick is generally safe.
Saltus in demonstrando, et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
You’re making an unfounded extrapolation. The fact that cannon spike is sometimes safe on block does NOT mean that drill -> cannon spike is also safe, any more than, say, Chun-Li’s early standing fierce being safe on block means that she can link into a blocked fierce whenever she likes without fear of reprisal.
Do you even play Cammy?
I’m not ignoring anything. Your problem, and Shari’s problem (or whatever his/her name is), is that you read my claim that Boxer’s/Blanka’s/Honda’s dashes are safe ON BLOCK as “they can dash without fear of being punished whenever they like.”
That’s not at all what I wrote. What I did write is that their dashes are more scrub friendly because a player who uses them has little or nothing to worry about IF THEY’RE BLOCKED, regardless of where the character was when the attacked was initiated – unlike Cammy, who has to perform the drill from a certain range to keep from being punished if it’s blocked.
@!#$, I hate discussing issues with people who don’t read.
More weird logic. Just because you play turtle Ken doesn’t mean that I play turtle Honda or turtle Chun. (Though I have been known to play turtle Chun vs. turt… er, sorry, “zoning” Kens just to piss them off.)
No doubt!
Sirlin said he didnt want her to be able to use lk drill > kick cuz boxer had the same thing. If kick hits shallow its gona be mostly safe distance wise, although it does matter on the character. Its not gona b safe if its deep. Lk drill sets up the spacing for that.
About boxer, honda, and blanka. Why are we worried about scrubs?
True, but alot of players turtle with honda because of his moveset. Chun can be very good at keepaway, a generalization on my part, because they can rushdown.
It’d be nice if syxx could also give an opinion on cammy.
I hadn’t heard anyone else say the lk drill wasn’t safe, and from my own experience vs cammy i can rarely punish the kick. I’m not saying it can’t be done my question is how many characters can punish these two attacks easily?
Look, guys, stop arguing against Milo. There is NO QUESTION that the other charges are WAAAAAAAY safer than the Cannon Drill. Let’s pose these few questions.
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If you ever connect Blanka’s Low Forward and the enemy blocks it and you are charged, is there ANY DISTANCE AT ALL where performing the Blanka Ball will be punishable?
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If you ever connect Balrog’s Low Strong and the enemy blocks it and you are charged, is there ANY DISTANCE AT ALL where performing the Low Rush will be punishable?
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If you are waking up, and someone is standing RIGHT next to you, is there any timing or distance where performing Honda’s Jab Headbutt will result in them being able to hit you back if it is Blocked?
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If you are Cammy and do Low Forward into Cannon Drill when you are right next to them, will you die? If you walk RIGHT UP TO HER when she is getting up and you block the Cannon Spike, can you hit her back?
Milo is NOT arguing whether or not the Blanka Ball, Honda Headbutt, and Balrog rush takes intelligence to use. He’s saying that, if you have an opening for the move, you can do them, sans repercussions. If you are Cammy, you HAVE to keep in mind distances at ALL times. Blind Cannon Drills do not work. From far, you have to pick the right strength Drill. If you are too close, you can’t even do Low Forward into Drill and automatically be safe. Why do you think so many Cammys, up close, do Low Short, Low Short, Low Short… Low Forward XX Cannon Drill? She has to get the Low Forward to hit at the tip.
I’ve played more Cammy than most anyone else in the states, I believe, since ST’s release here. Yeah, her Drill is safer, but it’s still not automatically safe. And the Cannon Spike is REALLY punishable now. Yes, there are times and places where it’ll be just right that it will be safe against some characters, but the amount of things I can get hit by after having it Blocked has increased by a HUGE AMOUNT since ST. Short Cannon Drill into Short Cannon Spike is NOT a Bread-and-Butter safe sequence by ANY stretch of the imagination.
- James
I think you need to play Cammy. See how well your theories hold up.
Look, instead of trying to attribute scrub-fear to me by deliberately misstating what I wrote, why not simply stop responding to my posts? After a few days, this will all blow over, and you can go back to jumping into discussions from the theorist’s point of view without anyone disregarding what you have to say.
Try doing those moves on good non-Cammy players, and find out.
I know Rog could hit it back with a low rush or super, regardless of whether he was hit with that string (unless it dizzied him of course).
Nope.
Spot on.
I don’t mean to speak for James, here, but I really think that we’ve got some people – possibly scrubs – here who got beat by a good Cammy, and rather than give any respect to the Cammy player, they’d prefer to think that she was overpowered somehow, or enjoyed some kind of advantage. Better for their egos, that way.
Fact is, Cammy takes a sh!t ton of skill to play well. More than most characters. Like T.Hawk, she has no generally safe special attack on which she can base her whole game plan; no projectile, no safe-on-block-from-anywhere dash, no ambiguous flying monkey sh!t (Claw/Dictator), no defensive knock-down special that dodges projectiles (Zangief clothesline) – no stuff like any of that to fall back on. Cammy is a real man’s character, played only by the truly masculine among us. You gotta bring the skill, or you’re dead, plain and simple; there are no outs. (And even if you do, if the other guy is an A-list turtle, you had better hope that he messes up, and that you don’t miss any opportunities that his mistakes afford you.)
Just too add, being myself an avid Cammy player:
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Drills are definitely not always safe, depends completely on space. That’s why I’ll often throw cr. shorts to space myself before the drill. Otherwise, you can be sweeped out and just about everything else if you’re too close. Some of you should see with Zangief how bad it is. He can sweep you out of a drill, and his cr. short will trade with the Drill too. Awful. Its also bad against Vega, who can cr. mp you to hell.
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If you do a Front Kick from a Drill it CAN be safe. It won’t be safe if your Drill connects too deep. I believe you need to hit the enemy with the tip of your drill before the Front Kick.
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Cammy is definitely the worst in HDR. Her reliance on mind-games and near-perfect execution can make winning REALLY difficult, and players (especially chargers) can hit you out of your drills and Hooligans from cr. short. She also has poor stamina, her anti-air needs ridiculous timing, and she doesn’t do much damage.
If it helps understand what Milo is saying about Cammy, it’s the same principle as Dictator’s scissor kicks. If you use the wrong strength kick, and end up too deep, you will get nailed.
You can punish blocked Blanka balls with Boxer and reversal Psycho Crusher. I don’t remember if Fei can punish with a reversal Rekka, but I think it’s possible. It’s not nearly as bad as Cammy, but it is punishable.
LK Cannon Drill is safer, not safe. I’ve grabbed Syxx a number of times from a poorly timed LK Cannon Drill.
If you think dr “rounds out his only weakness” you’re very mistaken. It’s against fb traps but aginst just about everything else it’s marginally helpful considering it’s 2 frames of invulnerability which is WAYYYYYY better then having to trly on super but as soon as he leaves the ground he’s fair game I understand how even having the option to reset helps him but IMO you and many others are overestimating dr’s usefulness on the whole.
He still has quite a few bad matchups honda and chun are still a nightmare for him, you still have to be adept at jumping straightup against fb’ers, and overall he is still very vulnerable in the corner even with dr don’t forget geif, honda, n hawk splashes rape dr.
So what makes him toptier to you? As a dic player I’m not taira but I’d liek to think I know at least something about his matchups and from where I stand he still has quite a few bad matchups in hdr.
Chun n dic were even in vst? that’s news to me, I thought after top4 chun was #5 and I’ve never thought of dic as hightier I always put him near top of mid considering his matchups, and his lack of placings in US tournaments. A few placings in top8 but not mnay and outside of that nothing I don’t even recall a major where he’s made top4 let alone won and I’m not putting all my stock in sirlin’s word but just to bolster my argument sirlin a notable dic player as you know said “he wasn’t even second tier in st” in his rebalancing article.
He still has a hard time in the corner and mosto f his bad mtachups are about the same he hasn’t drastically changed but he is highter in hdr not vst IMO.
BTW hope to play you @ evo:tup: