It’s about the viability of the ST HD versions. I figure many of the same people who comment in this thread may be interested in a discussion about the future of those versions.
To add to this thread, over time playing HDR it has become obvious to me that HDR is a slightly simpler game than ST. Many situations in ST which required a lot of critical thinking and reflexes have easier solutions in HDR. This is regrettable. However, I prefer the easier inputs and closer tiering. I also believe as HDR ages the matches will become more complex as the players ability to read each others gameplan evolves. This happened with the original ST and it will happen with this game.
The buffs/nerfs to the characters have no effect on me. I just don’t give a fuck whether Fei is better or worse. I only care whether or not he fits into the scheme of the new game, which he does.
Weird, only time I’ve gotten any classic matches in was when I made a ranked room. The biggest problem for me would be losing walk up 720 and having to re-learn walkup 360 (I’m REALLY use to the new motion now).
I think it’s all very subjective without looking at actual numbers.
And specifically looking at material numbers and in specific context. (top player with each character, in each matchup, as backed by tournament performance results)
gather data (individual win/loss) of tournaments with top players in them.
tally individual match win/loss data of these players vs. other of these players.
pick out the top performing player with each character in each matchup. (So maybe Taira-Dictator has the best record vs. Pony-Zangief but YuuVega-Dictator has the best record vs. Muteki-Guile; you would take Taira-Dictator data for the Zangief matchup and Yuuvega-Dictator data for the Guile matchup)
populate standard tiering chart for all matchup permutations
chart could be augmented to weigh in frequency of each character appearing (this is a metagame weighting to allow players to pick out better characters based on what characters they expect to show up)
I personally do think (like you) that Dictator is a very solid character that is very viable in tournaments. (team and other)
Well, it introduced a few of its own bugs, like the ability for Dhalsim to cancel a move into the Super, for example. So it’s not free from that argument.
But it IS more balanced. But balance does not equal better game, that’s all. It doesn’t make it a superior game just because it’s more balanced.
What makes it better suited for tournaments, again, doesn’t mean much. Think about the current popular roster of Fighting Games. Third Strike and MvC2 are hugely popular tournament games, yet both of those games are about as far from balanced as humanly possible. But something about those games makes people never wanna quit them. I mean, you can balance the hell out of MvC2, but the game just might not be as fun anymore. I’m not arguing that VST is better than HD Remix here, I’m just arguing your criteria for determining what is a better tournament game.
For some reason a srk is more “important” than a fireball, f,d,df,f should give u a fireball, but partly due to the dps 15 fixed frame window and some apparent order of precedence that motion generates a srk.
If u hit the second forward watch the character take a step then press punch they will fireball. Without the pause a srk.
Regardless he was whining. With ryu the motion is simply f,db+(mk/hk),d,df,f+p for 2 in 1 hado. You know I play ken, so that means I can’t negative edge the kick. Simple execution barrier that isn’t hard to overcome.
His fault for not putting a db in there, the games fault for accepting all 4 inputs as just the first 3.
Its fairly consistent with shotos but it probably works with cammy too.
I don’t believe anyone answered this question a while back, but I don’t belive the DR can go through jumpins. The reason? Provided that your jumpin has more than 2 active hitting frames, he will be hit out of the DR. He can’t crouch and wait until the tail end of your move either, because when you go from crouching to standing, you active Bison’s jumping frames during which he is completely hitable.
First off, I’m not whinning. I’m stating a simple fact. Also I’m talking about the speed required to buffer into the super, not a simple 2-1 fireball. Assuming your theory about hitting db is correct then they changed the basic execution of the manual in the game. A xx-fireball should not require that. ST plays better in that respect and that was my point. I made a combo vid of ryu’s super cancels (not using your db method) in remix / performing the combos in ST was much easier.
( [media=youtube]CD8DmxI46GI[/media] ) Anyway, when you are used to playing ST for 15 years its not tough to find small issues like that.
I will remove all data/references from your site.
I will leave a vestige of the idea behind it, to reflect a theoretical tiering based on performance data that would be possible to collect at some point.
It can’t be done. ST doesn’t have the proper critical mass of players not in the US not Japan not anywhere. Too few players too few events.
SF4 there’s 50 times as many people there’s still no such thing as a Daigo-level Fuerte or a Mike Ross-level Vega heh. There are very few top guys who ultimately play very few matches with each other. In the US shit is compounded by guys like Valle who sandbag all year until they get to Evo semis.
I’ve put a lot of thought into this I helped Zass a little bit with his player ranking project uhhh it made me realize just how little data we have to work with. Certainly not enough to take a scientific stab at character rankings.
FWIW I’ve been working for a long time on a Blanka diagram project based on real world results. When I started it I thought like you that tiers could be approached scientifically but then I realized I was naive and just continued because of inertia. I hope to get it up this summer sometime but you’ll see that with 8 1/2 years of results (x-mania 1 through today) I’ve got only a tiny little fragment. Seven measley blanka-sagat matches. One feat. top guys (yaya’s I forgot how to tiger uppercut display at x7.)
“Critical mass” in the context I’m discussing isn’t related to the number of players playing the game, it’s related to number of meaningful individual matches with top players vs. top players in a setting that makes them bring their “A” game.
Fewer numbers of material match data make results more grey, but it’s still a workable jumping off point for analysis.
You go with the top player/character pairings that exist.
With “top” being determined by performance results.
If new player/character pairings come into play over time, then you can adjust to reflect those as well.
I would want to go with data from big tournaments (or other venues where players have high incentive to play well), where players can be expected to bring their best game.
Analysis is my bread and butter as well.
And while I respect the desire for giant sample sizes, I am and ardent fan in working with what one has (or can get)… and then qualifying results based on problematic considerations.
Bottom line, is that as stomach turning as the quality of data points may be, they still can provide for a more workable canvas to play around on than the seas of peer review that flood the forums daily.
And it also depends on what you want to use it for and how accurate you really need it to be.
I feel your pain.
But I also would encourage you to make your data public so that others can work from it: either to review your work or to do their own analysis.
I try to provide certain data on the matches at the dojo for purposes of players being able to break it down and digest it in ways that can aid their development as a player.
I would love to do analysis on data there in ways that I feel are helpful and publish that, but I also love to get raw data out to players so they can do whatever reviews they want to do.
I don’t have the time or html skill to make public all I want, so I get out what I can.
Regardless, its not that hard to overcome if you want to.
I do wholeheartedly agree that a hado/super should come out if the last three inputs are the input for said special and a srk should never come out, but it does so we need to just work around it.
I prefer working around the shortcuts then having to make sure I can always do a 8 frame dp since the window is random, and you need to be able to do the worst case window situation at all times.
As you said after playing ST for that long, and having a change as small as dp window fixed to 15 frames, appears to change quite a lot. Let me ask, did you ever, ever get a random dp during these combos in ST that seemed like a once in twenty occurence? I ask because you would have eventually got the random 15 frame window and I’m curious if it ever gave you dp? Do we need 15 frames to pull off a srk?
I also wonder if anyone has a theory as to why f,d,df,f produces a srk, meaning that the game reads all four inputs as the first three, and doesn’t simply read the last three inputs?
@TOPIC
I like HDR because people are playing it, but not to sound like an echo, the times I’ve checked classic mode there isn’t anyone ever playing. If there are enough people in this thread saying classic, then why aren’t they getting together and playing classic online at least.
The only thing I wish for in HDR is either strip akuma of his “uniqueness” as in some part of RD vulnerable. I also, don’t agree with his fireball+air fireball and invincible srks. He can’t be ryu and ken(all of you should get my point), they need to pick one. The only other thing I have a problem with is honda’s oicho still being storable, and his jab headbutt being safe, AA, and at close range has the ability to go through fireballs, that’s a little much don’t ya think?
I like HDR because people are playing it in mass, whether they are beginners, rage quitters, veterans, or intermediates, they are playing the game and that’s what counts for me.
I can’t be 100% sure of the intent, but if I had to guess, I’d say the most likely explanation is that they knew folks weren’t going to be entirely accurate on their inputs every time, so they made it so that if you get these inputs within a time-frame, even if there are other inputs, then it will still give you the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, this also means that they need to give priority to certain specials over others, since you can easily get multiple different specials input at once. In certain cases, this prioritizing of specials is obvious (clearly, Tiger Knee needs to take priority over Tiger Shot in ST, otherwise you would almost never get the knee out). In the specific case of SRK vs. Hadoken, I suppose it might be possible for them to change the code so that it recognizes that last “toward” motion and uses that to decide to prioritize fireball rather than just having a global priority, but that doesn’t seem to be the system we got.
NKI’s site has a big list of the priority for special moves. To make sure you get cr.hk xx fireball, simply do it slower. You can add extra inputs, like starting in down-back, or just hit the button slightly later.
Yes I get the 15 frame DP every so often in ST, which I can live with. But, it happens like you said every 10-20 attempts. In remix its every freakin time which frustrates me.
Oh, and thanks for the db tip as it seems to work pretty well. Much easier than timing the late button tap, which I used to make my vid.
Yea that clears things up a bit. Wish I had dip switch in Remix to turn off the 15 frame window.
Yeah, sounds like you’re trying to safe jump against Bison lol. No reason for that. Bison’s new DR has little to no effect on crossups or ticks. Fireball traps is another story. Alot of people complain about this, but can’t you just stop throwing fireballs every now and then and DP if you see him use DR? I realize its not a guaranteed lockdown anymore, but still pretty good. BTW, can anyone link a video of the st fireball trap on Bison plz?
If you time the crossup later, and bison does a DR, then what? Youre saying you hit him out of the air with your jumping short kick? Thats a terrible result; you just performed your jump in late so that his DR was trivial to time, losing the chance for killing him instantly. Instead you hit him for a short kick worth of damage, and are totally out of position right next to him. Am I missing something?