I jumped in to comment on that specific guy complaining about two things that are the exact opposite of each other (pros can’t excel because of low skull required and infiltration winning everything is boring). Complaints that make sense are fine, so you can take your passive aggressive wink emojis elsewhere.
The problem is that people pretend SFIV had a deep gameplay.
People tend to confuse deepth with technical.
SF2 is deep game
SFIV is a technical game
The problem is how people tend to confuse combos for deep gameplay or varierty. Or like I said previously technical and deep gameplay.
SFIV had no moment were I got hyped,because of choices and decision that were made. In the end you had OS,that beat OS,that beat another OS,that beat the backdash.
You were basicly learning SFIV and practicing these 1f links for 300 hours before you got into matches and had to learn how to play.
SFV takes the approch “learning by doing”, the game was simplefied to lower the entrance barrier,but also allow for a more deep less technical gameplay.
Also the “learning by doing” approch is much more comfortable.
You don’t have to sit long in training to get the basics down or learnthings like OS. You basicly learn what your character can do and then it’s up to you to learn to use the tools.
I don’t know,but my definition of fun is to play the game and not play training mode 24/7 to be able to play the game.
Other than that was SFIV gameplay and system more your enemy,than your actual opponent.
I think I drift away.
I rather take deep over technical gameplay, thats why I don’t like SFIV very much.
That is pretty much something that existed since SF2 tbh. You had them in SFIV too,the problem with SFIV are close normals. You don’t have them in SFV,so your st/cr normals have to get more jobs.
Noone complained about this in Alpha2 and that game is one of the best SF games out there.
The only reasons why jump-ins in SFIV were less reward were:
- The overall lower damage
- DP FADC
- You could still jump-in against chars with bad anti-airs all day,it’s a legit tactic since 1992.
Footsies plays on different ranges,you still have characters with long pokes (Chun-Li,Cammy,Karin) and they still play midrange just fine. Unless you want to tell me SFIV footsies was a long range game.
Also zoning with normals in SFIV? I can name you 3 2 chars who did this : Dhalsim,Chun-Li thats 2/44.
Zoning in SFIV was mainly safe fireballs with fast startup and fast recovery.
I still play Persona 4 Arena and I enjoy it,since I love this game! Oh and KoF too.
Note that I didn’t say jumps had less reward in SFIV (though they did, somewhat). I said they are easier to land in SFV than older games, which makes constant jump attempts a dominant tactic in the game.
Watch EVO top 8 from 2015 and then 2016, the amount of jumping in 2016 was dramatically higher.
I meant zoning in the general sense of moves often used to maintain positional advantage, often just by threatening it at the proper range. Most characters had two or three of these in that game: Bison st.mk/st.hk, Yun st.mk/fwd.hp, Balrog st.hp/st.hk/st.mk, Cammy st.mk/st.hk, etc.
Entire SF series has always been the same depth mentally [don’t jump, spacing etc], it’s just the different systems/mechanics added to them that makes them technically different.
Anti-airing spontaneous jumps with a jab is very present in V, so how could it be that jumping is better here than it was in IV? It was actually in IV that those spontaneous jumps would lead to a hit-confirm or almost worse yet, a throw to an “okizeme”, just for jumping at the spur of the moment.
I completely agree that hitboxes should match animations, such as on Ryu’s cr.MK. The culprit in the “stubby pokes” is the cancelable ones - Nash’s cr.MK for example does not have the same disconnect between hitbox and animation. It does indeed feel strange at first that the ranges are no longer the same on what animation-wise still looks like the same, but it’s a matter of getting used to it. I think they’ve gone with a good concept when cutting down on the range on pokes that lead to combos. As somebody said some time ago, the “economy between the buttons” in SF has never been better than in V, and I think that’s a very good game-design accomplishment.
Bison can still “zone” but just not with that ridiculous st.HK from SFIV. His entire gameplan revolved around just st.HK and cr.LK 
I can’t say any of this makes any sense to me.
If the range is close and you jump, then that would imply that you want more space, no? Or do you mean the range magically becomes perfect for a cross-up? 
The first sentence in your post is like a “choo-choo”-train and I don’t know how to respond to that one…
Are you referring to someone in particular in the part that I bolded? Because as far as I can tell, nobody in this thread is arguing that SF4 was better because it was “more technical.” Most of the comparisons to SF4 are used to highlight SFV’s simplified neutral game, homogenous character design, and skewed risk/reward ratio, none of which have anything to do with option selects or hard knockdowns. SFV was simplified in many ways and the removal of option selects is only a small part of that really.
I have seen a few people asking for more complicated combos, but the reasoning there is not that longer combos make for “deep gameplay” but that they are cool and visually appealing. I can see both sides of this argument but I don’t think its nearly important as the problems I mentioned above.
You can’t simplifie the neutral game, get that in your head,thats impossible.
The neutralgame is the most complicated aspect of SF and a barrier since the 90’s.
SFIV didn’t had a good or deep neutralgame it stomped SF’s neutralgame with a gigantic boot and trempeld on it till it didn’t move anymore
Here is an example of what I mean:
Thats the poor neutralgame in SFIV.
Talking about character designs,you can remove 50% of the SFIV cast and would still have any kind of gameplay presented. You don’t have this in V,where every char plays different and has his own gameplay.
If you talk about how you play the character, that’s still something you can choose by yourself. You’re never forced to play a certain way, but if you want to come with the “but character X has to be played to be effective” then fine, it was the case in SFIV too and in 3S and in CVS2 and in Alpha2 and in ST. Thats one of the most stupid arguments I hear these days.
And now the risk reward. SFIV was low risk, high reward the whole time. You’re fastest and safest normal (3f jab) could lead into 300-400 damage Combos, on block they started pressure and if you whiffed them,well fuck it you whiffed them there will nothing happen.
Then we mix the Vortex gameplay in that left the opponent basicly without options since most Vortexes beat all their wakeup options(namely Akuma,Cammy,Yun) or the zoning,with low startup fast recovery fireballs and safe on block fireballs.
Or the fuckload of unblockables and ambigious safejumps people got of most of the stuff the game gave you,like a simple throw could lead into a unblockble what would lead into a 300+ combo,what would lead back into a safejump.
If SFV’s risk/reward is skewed,then must SFIV’s be insane.
in SFV you are actually forced to play in a certain way tho, it resets all situations to a stand still. there’s no depth beyond that.!!
you always go back to a boring neutral. knockdown has no consequence in most situations other than a corner push.
Ah thx,that you remind me of this.
In SFIV you got rewarded for each and every knockdown with safe setups,safejumps etc. You basicly didn’t take a risk,while your opponent was thrown into a massiv guessinggame that wasn’t a 50/50 but most of the time a 70/30 or even worse(I’m looking at you Akuma!). Getting knocked down in IV was mainly game over or guess right.
In the meantime most knockdowns in SFV reward with a easy throw/meaty mixup. It’s just rock,paper,scissor compared to SFIV rock,paper,rocketlauncher,shotgun,CATCHPHRASE,huli duli,scissor gameplay.
It’s not SFV’s fault that IV rewarded you,for avoiding the neutral and go nuts if you score a knockdown.
CVS2’s gameplay has much more depth than IV will ever have and thats a game where knockdowns mean less to nothing.
didnt people cry about:
- knockdowns, therefore vortex being too strong?
- focus mechanics obliterating the neutral game?
- light confirms leading into too much damage?
- the losing player getting rewarded for losing?
- characters building super fullscreen away by whiffing stuff
- anti air being too weak and unreliable?
- dp fadc’ing being a free get out of jail card?
last but not least
8. sf4 being too defensive?
Capcom basically delivered exactly what the community cried the most about and apparently (judging by 90% of comments here) we were fine with how 4 played all along…
You say that it’s impossible to simplify the neutral game, and then 2 sentences later say that SFIV had a simple neutral game. Um… what?
Almost every single character in SFV has the same gameplan: get in the opponent’s face, frame trap with stubby normals until you land a knockdown, go for a meaty/shimmy, then rinse and repeat. Nash is an exception simply because his space control tools are better than most of the cast, and Dhalsim plays a little differently too (although he’s still an aggressive character). Everyone else I can think of fits that gameplan to a T.
When you say that 50% of the SFIV cast had a similar gameplan (at least I think that’s what you’re trying to say?) it makes me wonder if we were playing the same game. Just look at the characters that are present in both IV and V and note how homogenized they’ve become:
SF4 Vega - plays an evasive, medium-long range neutral game to whittle down the opponent’s health
SF5 Vega - rushes down and frame traps opponents
SF4 Ryu - well balanced between offense and defense, combines strong zoning and footsies with basic offense off of a knockdown
SF5 Ryu - rushes down and frame traps opponents
SF4 Dhalsim - heavily reactionary keep-away character, sacrifices damage and offensive capabilities for some of the best space control in the game
SF5 Dhalsim - rushes down and frame traps opponents
etc, etc.
A lot of us were hoping for a truly defensive character with the release of Guile, but NOPE. Capcom decided it would be better to give him shitty normals and fireballs so he’s forced to play the same YOLO offensive game as everyone else. Remind me how this game’s character’s are diverse again?
Yet high level SFIV play saw far fewer YOLO jump-ins than SFV. I think that’s good evidence that the risk-reward favors the attacker too heavily in V.
There weren’t a “fuckload of unblockables” in SFIV. I can think of only a few characters that had unblockables, and even then they were mostly patched out in Ultra.
Nor were there an abundance of vortex characters. There were only a handful of true vortex characters even in AE, and then the introduction of delayed wakeup heavily weakened the vortex of any character who wasn’t named Ibuki.
As for fireballs not being complete shit in SFIV… well, I don’t really see the problem there.
I don’t remember anybody asking for shorter range normals, slower walk speed, stronger jump-ins, input delay, or homogenous characters.
The points on your list are mostly valid but also mostly irrelevant. They’re good changes, yes, but they don’t negate the more fundamental problems people have with SFV.
It’s perfectly consistent to believe that that SFV’s gone forward in some aspects and backwards in other aspects.
True, a few characters do have an extremely good jab AA (weird design IMO).
I don’t see what’s confusing about the statement that jumps become a more attractive option at close range, has this not been the case since SF2?
Scenario 1: player 1 jumps from far away (not on reaction), player 2 did something, but since player 1 was far away player 2 recovered and anti-airs. Even if player 1 had hit, it would have been at max range and their biggest combo wouldn’t work.
Scenario 2: player 1 jumps from close range, player 2 did the same thing, player 2 doesn’t recover in time eats a big combo.
Of course, footsies generally happening at the perfect range for a cross up, and many characters having situational anti-airs makes the situation even worse in SFV. Seriously, why do you think jumping is so prevalent in the game?
This.
I was just going to write an answer to the latest two pages but you basically wrote it for me.
A lot of buttons had long range AND were cancelable. You see this scrapped almost across the whole cast in 5. If it has long range, most of the time it cant be canceled, only through trigger.
This and some hurtbox wonkyness regarding the front foot of the opponent (foot == hurtbox) is the reason why people say it feels stubby, because you dont get much out of a long range, uncancelable st.mk and if you want damage you need to get closer. I dont see a problem with that tbqh.
Slower walk speed and input delay, I agree, was unnecessary…
Homogenous characters?
I dont feel like rashid and laura play even remotely the same. Or Gief and Birdie for example. All of the characters play and feel unique. You mentioned “rushdown” as the core gameplan of everyone but again, this is what the people asked for. SF4 was too defensive and didnt reward offensive, now we’ve got a game that rewards offense and again it’s not right… Im glad I dont work for capcom, honestly. You can do whatever you want, it’s still wrong.
And I giggled a little bit when you mentioned stronger jump ins… most of the people seem annoyed that st.jabs are too strong as anti airs, therefore making jumps useless, at the same time jumps seem to be too strong…
If there is such a disparity between opinions, doesnt that mean it could actually be balanced and we’re just whining about a game we dont fully understand?
Of course SF5 has it’s problems too, I dont question that. I merely question the people crying about stuff that fans actually demanded for YEARS. And now that they’ve got it they’re still not pleased, even angry about it.
*Some *fans: 'Defense is too strong, focus attack negates the fireball game completely, inv. backdash destroys wakeup game, dp fadc is stupid good’
Capcom: ‘We hear you. Here are crushcounters, let’s apply it too dp recovery and backdashes. Trickle some good frametrap buttons on top, there. Good to go, have fun playing offensive’
*Same *fans again: ‘Now all we can do is play offense/ offense is too good, wtf capcom, cant do anything right, even my unborn son could develop a better fighting game! Street Fighter is DEAD!’
…
No thanks - you just claimed that Ryu with a fireball, Dhalsim with a quick teleport, and Vega without either, all play the same — I don’t think there’s any point in writing an argument to someone in that frame of mind 
I still don’t get what you mean. I don’t even see the point in your examples, I’m sorry to say.
This isn’t remotely true. Watch actual top players play said characters and not take cues from online play where people are laregly doing cheap derpy XCOPY imitations of styles and getting away with playing like idiots.
ROM plays a mid ranged Vega that fishes for whiff punishes and goes in only after establishing momentum or after knock downs. Nemo plays clawless and goes ham from the start playing super aggressive and taking risks.
DamDai and Choi play Ryu like it’s ST and throw a million fireballs zoning at range patiently grinding down the match. Daigo/Tokido a patient mid range style mostly dependent on spacial control an positioning and finally you have the retarded go nuts style that everyone tries to copy from Forwude online where you press buttons, buttons and more buttons and play super aggressive.
Arturo “the Time Out Gawd” Sanchez’s Sim is the antithesis of “rush down”. I don’t know where you’re pulling otherwise from. He’s doesn’t play like a Gllty or F. Champ either.
I suggest watching the EVO top 8 again. Even with multiple repeat characters there were clear distinctions in style even during mirror matches depending on who was playing. Now don’t get me wrong. The game could certainly do with more mechanics or tools so it feels less restrictive, but to assert all characters play the same and everyone plays the characters the same is hyperbole and pure bs.
GO1 and MOV are 2 pretty different Chuns. Nuki has his own style too
Oh and this was just said about the character that took up 3 spots in top 8 on ESPN
If you all don’t like the game, I get it. It has very real issues… but the circle jerk here has got so out of hand that real complaints can’t possibly be distinguished from hyperbole.
Whatever happened to people who don’t like something just going quietly into the night?
Ryu, mister middle-of-the-road, gets meaties off nearly every combo except heavy DPs. How is that a reset of the situation?
I’d argue that while characters not having universal armour footsie-killers and other 4 staples might create more cast playstyle centralisation, that’s practically a return to form for SF. You don’t see people playing Rose in A2 throwing low forwards when her low strong is THE button. In SF4 there’s a lot of ILLUSION of flexibility in playstyle because of how technical the game is. SFV pares that down and restricts the options (as if they were already the “best” one). Like many have said of selectable super arts in III- most characters realistically have one optimal one to choose, with MAYBE a second (like Dudley, though it plays out so similarly it makes the choice moot, sometimes). SFV has attempted to do that with most normals, and even to a degree with its specials. I’ve barely used Medium tatsu in my life until V, which is a good sign.
I agree with the earlier points about how light AAs are both easy and not a great deterrent. I think there are many potential solutions to this, but only a few that really feel like they’d gel with the mission statement of V. This isn’t the thread for that, though. Ultimately, I feel like SF4 is the odd duck in terms of longevity, especially stacked up against giants like ST/CvS2/etc which are pretty well-known for neutral. Difference is that SFV came out deep in the information age by overly savvy developers. Nothing feels like a surprise, especially when there’s no egregious (and often really awesome) hitboxes and such. It’s stuff like that that causes HE KICKED THE FIREBALL to be a legitimate surprise.