i think in the RPS analogy, sfv knockdown gameplay is Rock-Paper
Scissors will either never make it or be $15 dlc
So characters in SFIV don’t need to space their normal’s properly at a certain distance to hit or be safe?
People don’t pay for jumping recklessly like in every SF game?
So I can throw a fireball anywhere on the stage and not get punished?
Whiffs don’t/can’t get punished in SFIV?
Seriously all this falsehood about SFV being “player oriented” and SFIV not so just made me V-Reversal your post.
You can ask the exact same damn questions, only with SFV instead.
If you don’t like V then fine, but what the hell is all this back and forth nonsense?..
But IV was in fact a shitty, imbalanced game - if you played say Ryu then perhaps the game was a-okay, but if you played a low-tier character then the game was bullshit.
And from Uncle Valle earlier today:
I guess someone should tell Valle that he is wrong! 
If you don’t know how to block, space, read, etc in SFIV like in the game I like in SFV, SF will feel imbalanced because you are not learning the fundamentals. Period. That’s my going back and forth point.
I know Valle is most likely better than me by a lot
But everytime I see him play rashid, he abuses the shit out of spinning mixer hitstop
the better question is “why do people who don’t want to read bitching about the game continuously click on the one thread where they will find bitching about the game”
I found this post insightful. You clearly have a better knowledge of the competitive scene than I do.
That said, I don’t think the fact that pro players have different styles proves that SFV’s roster is diverse. It’s more of a testament to the skill of those players than it is to Capcom’s game design. I still maintain that the most characters’ tools are relatively similar in SFV, regardless of how players may choose to apply those tools.
A few other gripes: first, Tokido is hardly a patient space controller in this game; he plays quite aggressively and in his games vs. Daigo it appears that Daigo’s more defensive style is outmatched by Tokido’s aggression. Tokido has had more success than Daigo in general in SFV, and I don’t think it’s far-fetched to say that Daigo’s commitment to a patient neutral/zoning game has been holding him back (although I believe he is slowly abandoning this style as he figures out the game more).
I would make a similar argument about Art; MAJOR props to him for beating Momochi at Evo but his overall performance has been less consistent than Fchamp and I think that can be attributed to his reactive style. When it works, it works beautifully, but it’s a very precarious way to play in SFV since you have to play much, much more consistently than your opponent when you’re relying on stray pokes to kill characters that can stun you in 5 seconds if they get their hands on you. I’ve seen a few games where Art played perfectly for 3/4ths of the round only to fudge a single anti-air (or even fuck up his IAT input lol) and then lose the round as a result. Meanwhile Fchamp can afford to be less consistent than Art in his play since he has a much more proactive and aggressive playstyle.
So although we see a diversity of playstyles in the current professional meta, I think it’s possible that the less aggressive players will be weeded out or forced to adapt as time goes on. That’s just speculation, though; you do make some good points and I’ll grant that I exaggerated how homogenous characters are in SFV. I still think SFV’s roster is by far the most homogenous of any SF game to date.
I didn’t understand what you meant by that, but fine.
I actualy can’t belive that you want to tell me that every character in SFV plays the same. You obviously didn’t play the game at all if you belive this.
I never saw a Vega who gets in and wants to frametrap,if they go in with claw off,they mostly do one normal and then either a commandgrab or cr.mp or back off,switch back to claw and go back to the poking game.
You wanna tell me that Vegas just rush in and this is BS.
You play the character how you decide it, just by having offensiv tools,doesn’t make a character offensiv by default.
What about Birdie who can either zone you or play grappler?
What with Chun-Li who can either play defensiv footsies or rushdown with tons of IALL?
Or Ryu who can adjust his gameplan on the flight.
Ken who just goes into turtlemode and confuses everyone with this.
Dhalsim who either can get in on you with TK Teleports and Yogaflames or keep you away with his buttons.
I think you don’t see the difference between varierty and forced gameplay, you can play the characters how you want(or how the MU wants it).
And like I said you can remove 50% of every character in SFIV and still had the same gameplan presented.
And if you don’t want to play Guile like a turtle,you just do it. OMG they gave Guile tools to go on the offence “HE’S A OFFENSIV CHARACTER HE HAS TO RUSH DOWN AND GET IN!”, thats what you’re trying to sell here and thats the biggest nonsense I read since DSP started to talk about him beeing a former pro fighting game player.
And Yet SFIV had this.
Delayed wakeup mostly fu**ed non vortex characters up,yeah and Akuma.
Ibuki,Cammy,Seth and Yun are 4 good and unchanged examples.
Every character had at least 1 unblockable against 1 character. Even Rose had one against Ryu,she had more but thats the only one I remember on her.
As for fireballs not beeing complete shit in SFV…well, I don’t see why adjusting to spacing should be hard right?
Jesus, you sound like the comment section on Eventhubs.
And so does Cammy.
He’s just butthurt that he doesn’t get unblockables and 50/50s after every Throw and BnB.
Explain me how everyone in SFIV had a faster walkspeed?
Because I don’t see it.
Walkspeed was allways character specific.
Cammy,Chun-Li,Karin,Juri,Guile,Ibuki,V-Triggerd Birdie,Vega,Balrog have all fast walkspeeds.
Most characters walkspeeds are pretty ok.
I can’t even remember how Seth walked you down in the corner with his incredible walkspeed,that was just a bit faster than Zangiefs!
Slower walkspeed is a weak argument,since all characters allways moved differently fast,in general are rushdown and footsies characters the ones with fast walkspeed and defensiv/turtle/grappler chars the ones with slower ones.
Stubby normals are also subjektiv,I allready told you that they were in SFIV too and existed in every other SF game too.
Or maybe you want something like Poisons st.mk? That thing that went on forever and was cancleable on top of beeing safe on block and fast.
If you want long ranged normals,pls look at the footsies chars we have and talk with them about their stubby normals that have no range.
Stronger jump-ins are a subjektiv argument after all. SFIV rewarded you with more BS and 90% of the jump-ins in IV beat everything that wasn’t a DP and even there DP’s got beaten sometimes,because stuff like Dudley j.hk existed.
input delay SFIV had too… well SFIV had less,but it was still there. The PC version is still better with it’s 4-6f input delay compared to the 8 of the PS4.(SFIV had 2-5 on consoles,2 on PS4, and 2 on PC)
You and your homogenous characters, did you even played the game or tried to play different? Or did you just jump into the river and did what every online flowchart player does.
The “fundmaental” problems SFV has are? I hear noone in the competetive scene complaining about the gameplay. The complains are mostly the input delay.(and the lack of D-Input on PC,I mean seriously,they still haven’t implented this.)
Other than that the problems gigglz listed are the things people wanted to be changed.
Now they’re changed and now people come out of their holes and complain that they’re changed.
And now tell me again,why I’m supposed to be wrong. I’ll wait.
all these people arguing, haha. why does it matter to you what other people think? it’s fine if you people enjoy sfv, but honestly when you guys try to take up the position of pretending sfv’s designs are superior to sf4, it becomes hard to take anything you guys say remotely serious, really. you guys are complaining about hyperbole arguments against sfv, but most of you do the exact same to sf4 in return.
as for this cipher guy, you are one silly bird.
you’re right it’s char specific, but i suspect you’re intentionally playing dumb here in an attempt to devalue his actual point, since it’s obvious he meant on average the walkspeed is significantly higher in sf4 than in sfv. and your cute, hyperbolic counter-example is from a char with one of the slowest walkspeeds in sf4.
stubby normals are not a matter of subjective interpretation, no. they are a matter of historic comparison. all you have to do is compare hitbox/hurtbox extensions with previous games compared to the original idle hitbox size and you’ll easily see that these normals extend far less than pretty much any other equivalent-use normal in previous iterations. that’s not a matter of opinion.
stronger jump-ins are also not a matter of subjective interpretation, no. they are a matter of basic math/risk-reward evaluations. you also add in a nice, random hyperbole about how “90% of jump-ins beat everything in 4,” which honestly voids anything you say forever in the future in this thread. that single line alone loses you any authority on this subject permanently,
of course. some of them genuinely enjoy it (which is perfectly alright, despite what people in this thread may try to get you to believe,) but if you gave it some thought you’d realize why them not complaining is not a valid (or even smart) argument, since most people in the competitive scene have zero incentive to voice gameplay concerns like that because all it does is spread negative vibes/energy that could potentially harm the growth of what gives them their earnings. most with any sort of self-interest/preservation will try their best to only focus on the positives in order to maximize their own “career”'s lifespan.
so when that’s one possible (and a big one) motivation, trying to use their lack of complaints as an argument is silly at best. but honestly dude, you should stop posting. most of what you say is complete nonsense. it’s fine that you like sfv, and didn’t like sf4, that doesn’t mean you have to make a fool out of yourself with all kinds of retarded arguments.
For the walk speed stuff, and I’m 99% certain that the values for the measurements stayed exactly the same as in sf4:
SFV on the left, SF4 on the right.
Cammy 0.05/0.04 — 0.055/0.045
Ryu 0.047/0.032 — 0.045/0.03
Ken 0.047/0.032 — 0.046/0.0345
Chun 0.0535/0.034 — 0.055/0.045
Dhalsim 0.022/0.02 — 0.025/0.02
Claw 0.055/0.045 — 0.055/0.05
Zangief 0.0305/0.0235 — 0.035/0.03
Dictator 0.02/0.023 — 0.055/0.04
It’s fairly obvious based on those numbers that most stuff from the sf4 cast got slower compared to the sfv ones.
But that’s only if the stage = 15 number is still correct, but as I said, I highly doubt that it got changed.
Now feel free to keep killing each other :v
Oy vey, what is going on in this thread?
This is why you don’t argue on forums guys, just put your opinion out there with proper reasoning and let it rock, otherwise you’re in for nonsense. As you all have shown, most of people and 90% of people on the internet don’t know what an actual argument is. Now if you get someone who actually knows how to argue and is using facts against your facts, or his own opinions against your own – then great, that’s a lucrative thing. However, the amount of subjective bias being thrown out here intermingled with “facts” is just getting ridiculous, both for and against SFV.
If some of you can’t read your own posts and find the painfully obvious counterpoints or just hilariously invalid “statistics” or, as has been stated, ridiculous hyperboling (not a word) – not to mention some of your are just extrapolating your own arguments and arguing against NO one. Guy mentioned SFIV, therefor he loves SFIV, I’m now going to argue everything he says as if he said everything in SFIV is the best. Then we got massive blanket statements being used like everyone playing hyper rushdown. This is not how you argue guys, sorry to break it to you.
Or by all means keep going, because it is amusing if nothing else.
I will not join in your current arguments, but I will voice something else which is loosely related, and I’d be interested in hearing actual opinions or reasonings as to why it is the case…
I believe it was pretty confirmed that Capcom designed SFV to appeal to casual players, yes? This seems obvious with the general ease of execution across the board and generally pretty simplistic characters, especially in the release cast. So then why did Capcom choose to include so many things which are underneath the casual player’s ability to understand? The hitboxes and hurtboxes for instance, while we’re fully in the know, make little sense to a casual player. We can site the ever so popular AA jab to have a glimpse into the realm of visual disparity that SFV has in droves.
Now SFV as a whole uses very universal hurtboxes, and in the air, everyone shares the same size hurtbox. One which is huge, far larger than any jumping hurtbox I am aware of. The issue is that this hurtbox size only matches the animation of Birdie and Zangief at best, while everyone else is scrunching up into tight balls as they flip around. These large hurtboxes mean that the people on the ground can hit you earlier than they EVER could before, which is why AA jabs work as a whole in ways they never really did before. The problem is, it makes no sense in context, visually nothing makes sense, you (the person jumping) are no where near them, and they (the person grounded) are swinging at air.
Now when you’re designing hitboxes and hurtboxes, what matters isn’t that it actually matches up with the animation, it’s that it makes sense in motion. I’m going to site one of my favorite normals in fighting game history, both to use and from a design perspective, because if you look at it frame by frame it doesn’t make much sense, until you see it in motion. We’re going to be using 3S Ryu’s cr.HP as an example, and you’re welcome to follow along with me as I explain the genius design to this move.
(Follow along with me, by all means)
http://baston.esn3s.com/hitboxesDisplay_spritesheet.php?iChar=2&sMoveType=fd_normals&iMove=9
So, if you were to just scan this move, you would probably come to a few quick questions like “why the hell does he have a hitbox just hovering in the air?” and things of the like. Well, let me explain the genius design, and the joys of limited frames of animation! So frames 1-5 we got the start-up, you can see Ryu winding up his fist and such, then it’s on frame 6, where we get it’s first hitbox. It’s quite large, extending beyond his fist, this is to give it priority while also leaving room to deduce that his fist in motion may actually pass through there. Then we have the second large hitbox, this is where his fist came from, so it has context for existing, and it also makes this tool strong against lows (and it was).
Now if we get move to frame 7, things get a little weird. His fist isn’t anywhere near the hitbox, so clearly this is bad hitbox design, right? No, it’s actually genius! Isolated, it makes no sense, but in motion, it makes SO much sense. His fist is moving quickly, and to emphasize that speed they move his fist to the top immediately, while putting the hitbox where his fist had traveled, with no hurtbox to really solidify this move as an anti-air. The really cool part, is that these hits have little to no hit-stop, so when they connect, it’s just a quick “BLAP!” so the game never freezes and keeps moving, so all you ever get to see is his raised fist.
Now on frame 9-10, we get what is left of his fist’s momentum making it’s last stand in the form of this tiny hitbox eclipsed by a vulnerability box. The beauty is that 3S does this a lot – this whole concept of decaying hitboxes, that get weaker and smaller over time. Watch a shoryuken and you can see it, but even with this move, you can see it. See how the hitboxes get smaller in each active segment? Just amazing design. Then to top it all off, the game has 10 whole frames where his fist is exposed and ripe for whacking (no homo)! The power of things in motion, I love it!
–
So, back to what I was saying before. The AA jabs, don’t make sense in motion either and from a general feel perspective, are both unsatisfying, and visually perplexing to the casual viewer/player. So beyond my own subjective reasons for disliking them, they are a questionable game design decision as a whole. Truly though, Ryu’s, Necalli’s and potentially Alex’s just seem unintended, to be fair to Capcom. Am I objectively right in this analysis, I feel like I am, I think most people can look at it happen and see that it’s not matching anything. Now, you can question this from a gameplay perspective ad nauseam, but from a mere visual and satisfaction level, I think this is objectively bad design. Yes? No? Let me know what you think.
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My second concern is related, and something that TRULY perplexes me as a whole. Why do some air normals have a decrease in hurtbox size? Why only some? And it’s not ones with particular animations which get compact, because A LOT of moves get compact but keep the large hurtbox. Did Capcom just not finish the aerial hurtboxes? Is this unintended? Intended? What purpose did Capcom see for things like Ken’s j.MP, which for whatever reason has the fireball immune hurtbox removed, yet a move with the same animation more or less has it (Ibuki’s j.LP). Why is this the case? I truly wonder.
Moreover, applying this to the casual thing from before – how would a casual EVER understand this when it’s so arbitrary? SFV has a lot of arbitrary stuff that is difficult to understand from first glance. Like it’s general combo system is picky as hell, with very restrictive combo paths once someone is put into a juggle state. There is no logical path to follow to figure out which moves possess higher tiers of juggle capability. Like why does Ibuki’s j.MP have combo potential at the “EX only” levels? Who the fuck knows, it just does. This kind of limited design is really confusing for new players, and while I get that Capcom is scared of people having options, this design is just questionable.
Do other people feel like Capcom failed to appeal to casuals simply due to their own fear of giving characters freedom within their own engine? That they don’t trust their own engine enough to allow juggle states to simply be just that, a juggle state, where if something’s hitbox connects, it hits them. They don’t explain that anywhere, they don’t show hitboxes, they don’t teach any of this. This game is just as difficult to learn for a new player as the older games were, only with even more arbitrary things.
Lemme know what you think, because I am curious. Especially about the random hurtbox removal of some air normals.
Most newer players aren’t going to be playing at the level to worry about the hit/hurt boxes and as long as they are moving around and hitting buttons the game will seem pretty obvious to them. The hit boxes were off in SFIV and even other games like the Alphas as well, but people at that level just start to make cognitive memory of where to place those buttons.
The hit box/hurt boxes are an issue, but definitely overstated as something that a newer player would have to worry about. They’re just pressing buttons any way.
i never bought in to the next gen hype
instead i got a jl audio sound system for my car
PS3 is as good as it gets!!!
I actually disagree – I mean, I agree that they just want to hit buttons, but I disagree that they aren’t going to get annoyed by things making no sense in context. I know this due to my own experience as of late of abusing Ibuki’s air throw to reduce my hurtbox. I can tell the players I’m using it on sometimes just don’t understand what is going on, because they have every right to, it makes no sense. Why does whiffing an air throw reduce my hurtbox to the size it really should be to begin with? Who the hell knows.
I can tell the player thinks it’s them mistiming their anti-air, when in-fact, it’s me just doing something which for whatever reason changes my size with no visual indicator. That’s frustrating, and stuff like that builds annoyance on players and causes them to leave. If aerial attacks as a whole had a general theme of doing this, then it would be fine, and seen as some balancing tool for certain normals, but it seems random and arbitrary.
And yes, the hitboxs were off in SFIV, quite a bit actually. In-fact, in SFIV, I think hitboxes were the problem. In SFV, I think it’s hurtboxes that are the problem. Generally we need more of them on recovery, a reduction on AAs and a reduction on jumps as a whole. This is all subjective desires of mine, however.
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I do think this game’s attempt at being simple only made it more complex to newer players. Using the limited combo paths again, why can’t Laura hit with her EX elbow or MP elbow in combos, but LP elbow works? No simple reason for that other then “it can’t.” Why can’t she hit with her fireballs twice in a combo? Random.
Why can I hit with Ibuki’s f.HK, b.MP after EX Kunai but not just a MP? SFIV has this problem too. I think it’s making things overly complex for no reason. It’s like yeah, I can hit with Makoto’s j.HP after EX fukiage, but why can’t I just use her grounded HP? Shrugs
When I first tried out SFV I didn’t like how the movement speed was decreased (SF4 was already slow as hell). But then I realized that Dashes were significantly sped up for compensation. So while movement speed is slower in SFV than SF4 (Which I’m not a fan of), SFV is still a faster game overall than SF4.
Cool.
Daigo just won a tournament with fireball zoning and it was against crazy agressive Eita.
So I guess it can work afterall.
+1 one but less complicated… casual players want to see hitboxes and hurtboxes aligning pretty closely with the character animation. Similarly, they want moves with big recovery looking like that, and with short recovery looking like that.
Casual players aren’t reading framedata and reading forums, they are playing the game.