Due to the horrible rollout the game had, ragging on the game is the cool thing to do now. That’s why morons want to harrow and celebrate when 1 or 2 top ex-SF4 players talk bad about it, despite the multitude or in cases like Mago citing the whole of Japan explicitly stating they prefer it over SF4.
At the end of the day it’s an individuals taste whether someone likes the game or not, not gospel. Phenom is entitled not to like the game, but one, giving his limited SF/FGC history I take his opinion with a grain of salt, and two, pretending whether he does or not is ultimately nothing more than his personal opinion is retarded. Also understanding WHY Phenom doesn’t like the game is important to give context. In that interview a while back Phenom actually said he likes the pace of this game better and that people no longer have retarded OS’s that cover 3 options etc so they didn’t have to think. Pretty much everyone agrees with this.
What he doesn’t like in the game is that it’s too hard to whiff punish and outplay in neutral making the game skewed towards pressure/reads in an interview and I kinda agree with him. I play Chun so don’t really that problem cos st. fierce is so gdlk, but I can see how that can be an issue. Medium buttons recover way too fast and the lack of universal style Jab combos mean a lot of characters get away with wanton spam. Compared to 3s where if you press a medium and I can almost universally punish with shoto low forward super or SF4 where you can eat a 200+ BnB, I understand why some are not a fan. I’m not either.
I’m assuming this might be down to the input delay, so hopefully it gets fixed.
Yeah Japan seems pretty content with the game. The only vocal Japanese that dislike the game are the same ones that didn’t like SFIV (like Ino). Supposedly BAS doesn’t think SFV is that bad, but he sure didn’t like IV especially early on. He supposedly played it for a bit, but he didn’t go out of his way to make it his main game. Nuki played SFIV for a bit, but then went back to 3S and only came back for V which he seems to like (Chun Li being good helps).
Just like 3S and SFIV people will talk shit, but they will still be the big games and people will still play them any way. It’s not going nowhere.
I don’t blame Phenom for not liking the game. They basically turned Bison’s neutral game upside down and he’s not like Ryu, Chun or Cammy where the basis of the character’s neutral game is still there. Other than occasionally ticking people with scissors and throwing heavy buttons out he’s pretty much a new character.
Makes sense for him to play Necalli since Necalli does similar things, yet is better in every way.
Also consider that Phenom was a Bison main (on the inside only now) for years, consider how horrible of an experience competitive SF5 is becoming for Bison mains in the last few months. All but a handful dropped the character unfortunately because of his competitive (un)viability. Stuff like this can be painfully frustrating if you are a character loyalist, and it can distort your opinion of the game.
I like you, I REALLY REALLY like you (or at the very least this post)
I think however it would be great if people listed the REASONS why they dislike the game… Even if they’ve already done so previously, just to get the hate wagon back on track and us talking about specifics… I’ll go in then:
Throws are pretty bad now. I won’t go into all the details of why, just that I want a better throw game in general.
Nerfing of the 2 in 1: specials are notoriously bad on block now, either giving up turns or being punishable. This makes canceling into them from close range a bad thing for most specials. So now there is way less 2 in 1 going on to push people back after a blockstring. This is one reason why people get swept so much after doing a blockstring… They don’t have moves to push themselves out. This is why players have started to do a blockstring and then immediately backdash at the end of it… Backdash now take the place of the 2 in 1with regards to gaining safe space.
Now besides the obvious impact that I just talked about, this has another less obvious consequence:
The game is less damage in general from this. Before if your pushout 2 in 1 hit you got some ok damage. Now… You don’t. Also you get no chip damage either. This is the real reason for white chip. To try and get damage back up.
3. Most things are negative on block and there are few ways to confirm into big damage that don’t require big risks:
Blow your v trigger on a guess
Do an unsafe move with the hopes that you hit
Try and rely on a random CC so you can get big damage
Most knockdowns force neutral so momentum is less an issue than in past streetfighter games. You have to win neutral over and over again against people that you are better than, more than in older games.
Punishment for bad fundamentals is way less than in other streetfighter games because of the knockdown forcing more neutral and because damage is so meter AND starter based.
The knockdown game is just terrible as it is.
The neutral game can feel very RPS like if both players are offensive and ground based.
Hitconfirms no longer generally allow for throw mixups on block (I REALLY hate this aspect of the game)
How is this even a bad thing? If your fundamentals are better than your opponent’s then you should be able to win neutral repeatedly. And it usually happens; I’ve barely seen any bad player getting any advantage just because his opponent couldn’t abuse of the knockdown. I mean, in SF4 you could score a hard knockdown from any sweep, which is a thing any SF player learns just by playing the game for a few hours, how was this a reward for “better fundamentals”?
I will never get the “too much RPS” complaint either. First of all, if throws were as bad as you depict them it would mean that either rock, paper or scissors should be scrapped out… Second, I thought that RPS were an essential part of fighting games that allows them to be something more than just a fight of button mashers vs. turtlers. And finally, the RPS aspect is what allows for both mixups and reads, since the situations are not completely random either.
You seem to seek for a game that has unlimited blockstrings and almost unescapable pressure, which is pretty much the opposite to what SF has always been known for and one of the reasons why many people thought SF4 wasn’t true to the franchise. It would make sense then that you don’t appreciate SF5 that much.
Well I’ve talked about why I hate the game before, but to summarize.
1- Lack of damage
2- Lack of Combos
3- it’s just neutral into neutral into neutral.
the only difficult thing about the game is the hit confirms which I don’t care for to be honest Another thing is how boring it is to watch, I’ve never watched a single finals and I’m talking winners finals etc. I can’t even remember Watching a single set, Usually I just close it in disgust.
Ah the idiotic motto of the mindless capcom fanboys that support a bad product because they aren’t “good” in any other games without 8f’s of input lag or a broken netcode. Tell them to remove the 8f’s of lag, fix the broken netcode that can’t evenly distribute lag between two players, tweak game mechanics to feel challenging enough that players want to get good and then add some real one player content for the casuals that the game is suppose to be aimed at. Being good at SF5 isn’t even something to be proud of or care about. If they ever fix this game and make it something that isn’t an incomplete laughing stock then more players will want to play the game and improve in it. Until then just enjoy the ever shrinking player base, boring tournaments where pro tactics are now largely jumps ins, and a story mode that wont fix even 1 single problem the game has. Get good at garbage is what you’re asking…
SFV is a game that lacks style, personality, and flair. It is bland, mechanical [no creativity, just fundamental] and stubbornly persistent in the former two.
The only good thing that I will say about the game is that visually it looks stunning, I also like the new take on the old characters as well as most of the new characters except fang. I don’t know much about the story mode except that the lack of animations was extremely disappointing.
No, that is not what I want. However if it makes you feel better then you can believe that is what I want.
Streetfighter is not known for not having bad positions that can loop into each other… It’s actually the foundation of ST and older fighters.
What you are talking about is more of a cvs2 and maybe 3s kind of thing.
Alpha 2 was that way as well, but it’s a high damage game so you only need one mistake to lose, no need to loop bad positions since one bad position is all it takes.
As you said, if I’m the better player then I’m going to win anyways. So why make me have to do it 4 times or more a round when I could just do it twice? The answer is to give worse players more of a chance, or atleast the illusion of a chance.
This makes those players feel invincible for certain amounts of time and they do dumb shit hoping that their dumb shit works… Whereas all it really does is force me to endure their dumbshit for longer periods of time.
And it’s harder to teach people how to play in lower damage games since they always have “hope”.
And that probably didn’t convince you at all. But at the end of the day, higher stakes games are more fun.
There a reason why penny ante poker games are seen as casual and the games that are considered of the highest skill are the ones being played for thousands of dollars.
Psychology is the funnest aspect of fighting games. And fighting games are only REALLY psychological when one side can be horribly damaged for one mistake, which induces fear.
This forces players to not do dumb shit and increase their fundamental ability so as not to be put in such bad spots.
But in games where it is strictly RPS… Players don’t care. They will just roll the dice over and over and won’t want to get better because after all… It’s just RPS, you win some you lose some. Nothing to be learned.
Yes, and that’s literally the difference between SF and games like Marvel or Skullgirls. No one touch deaths, combos are smaller and they always leave room for a comeback without adding silly mechanics (let’s forget Ultras for a moment).
Your logic doesn’t make any sense to me. You suggest that a fighting game should make the life of “better” players easier; this sounds to me like trying to enforce the law of the fittest. It can also simply tell to average players to find gimmicky ambiguous mixups to open the opponent and then win the match from there on. Again, if you’re good you don’t need an easy mode to go on, you can prove your superiority by annihilating any hope for a comeback. This means that you, as a “good” player, can’t either think you can go on autopilot just because you managed to win a duel once or twice, hence forcing you to be solid the whole match.
What you say doesn’t even make sense from a teaching perspective. If you want people to learn not to make dumb mistakes, wouldn’t punishing them 4 times in a match for those mistakes be more instructive than losing the match because of an opening mistake? If they lose a match because one of their DPs didn’t pass through they can still think it was just bad luck and try again next match, but if I read 3 or 4 wakeup DPs in a row and kill you then THAT’s the sign that you should change your strategies.
I feel that one of the reasons fighting games aren’t that popular as a genre is because many of their competitive players feel the competition should be open only to a small number of people that are “good”. To follow your suggestion, why don’t we allow the best players to start directly in top 8 in tournaments instead of going through the hassle of repeatedly beating low level players that make dumb mistakes? I think some people may really think something like that, but in the end everyone should agree that it defies the very purpose of the competition.
I support a product because I enjoy it
Your assumptions show the amount of salt pouring from your orifices
No one is proud because they’re good at SF5
Just because people support one thing doesn’t mean they are bad at other things
Sorry the game doesn’t run well for you or up to your specifications, but we’re doing just fine
I do enjoy watching you spend your time bitching about a game you don’t even try to play anymore
There is always a shedding in the community with each new Street Fighter. Not everyone can remain interested enough all the time. But you don’t have to be condescending or undermine the new playerbase. Just carry on and hopefully Street Fighter will find a way to get you back in. Or not.
That’s an extremely simple-minded way to approach learning. It’s also entirely wrong. Mistakes are only as bad as their consequences. If you can get away with 3 mistakes every round while still doing “better” than last time, that is what you will do. If one mistake ends the round, you will either quit or learn FAST. And the people who quit were never going to be good anyway, because they were the people who were happy with making 3 mistakes every round.
If the game was truly that simple you would see great variation in tournament results and new players winning. What we’ve seen so far is that the old guard of Street Fighter is still the best at this game which speaks to the underlying mind game that requires skill and experience to be proficient at.
The people whining seem to be using “random”, “guessing” complaints as an outlet for their frustration in wanting some old iteration of SF back.
That’s pretty much the opposite of what happens. A new player will feel so overwhelmed by what’s happening that he won’t even be able to take a look at its own match to acknowledge its own mistake. Nobody can recognize an error by coming across it a single time; you need to repeat the mistake a few times at least to realize it’s a wrong habit.
Also I think your last sentence perfectly summarizes the mindset I was criticizing. You want games that put a strong barrier between good and bad players and eliminate the second ones as fast as possible. After that we will spend years complaining about how we can’t get new fighting games because nobody wants to buy or play them except the lucky fews that managed to get through that first skill barrier. Good job, FGC.
I agree with your points, however, SF4 didn’t have “unlimited blockstrings and almost unescapable pressure.” I don’t know what game you were playing.
Also, too much RPS is a valid complaint. The weighing of risk vs reward, knowledge of spacing, and memorization of the opponent’s tendencies are things that make the game less RPS and more about intelligence, preparation, and hard work. The fact that you have to guess so much in the neutral game is dumb. For most matchups, spacing isn’t very important at all, and then you have the 8f delay where it makes reacting to forward dashes, whiffed normals, and jump-ins much harder to counter, so the read/reaction ratio is actually shifted towards the read and away from the reaction.
Lol there’s a biweekly local tournament that I win every time I go. I’ll play SF5 as long as it pays for my gas lol.
A lot of the big names in Japan aren’t vocal either way for the game. I mean, these guys either want to get sponsored or want to maintain their sponsorship, so they’re not going to market a negative opinion for the game, especially if playing a game could get you paid. Daigo and Tokido have implied that the game may not be played next year, which is likely a reflection of its popularity over there. (Obviously, I still think this is going to be the #1 FGC game next year, though).
SD Pnoy, who played every character except for Hakan and Viper, at an above average level in 4 has said that he thinks SF5 Bison is very similar to Makoto in 4. No walk speed, good dashes, and his Axe is similar to Makoto’s Axe Kick. What a change in neutral. He also told me that half the people in the Bison discord chat already switched mains…to Necalli. Some people have switched to other characters, though, like Alex, Nash, or Birdie.
I disagree, I think for most characters, there’s a lot of damage, and a lot of the game is won or lost in the oki. Again, that’s depending on the character, but true for the most part.
But yeah, this game is boring as shit to watch. I was so disappointed with this year’s Stunfest. I love watching Xian, though. Never thought that would have happened. And Filipinoman has said this game is very boring to watch, too.
I like watching the game. Theres just a lot more standing up and fighting which is the dark age style. Alpha 2, 3S, CVS2 there was just a lot of standing up and button pressing. I guess that may be boring for some, but that’s my favorite SF