Uh, wut. Do thing, get blown up, stop doing thing. No one has ever been overwhelmed by that sequence. If that was “overwhelming”, there would be children all over the world with disfigured hands because “don’t grab that hot thing” would over-fucking-whelm them.
Like I already said, mistakes are as bad as their consequences. If somebody whiffs DP and loses the round on the spot, they’re not gonna go “oh I mistimed it slightly, let me try again”, that shit only happens when damage is low and they know they can get away with shit. What they’re actually gonna do in that situation is not fucking whiff DP.
Well you’re half right, I suppose. I do want a barrier, because I don’t harbor the ridiculous delusion that fighting games are or should be something most people play. Some people are willing to do what is necessary to be good at fighting games and some people aren’t. Here’s the barrier I want. If Bob and Joe have never played a fighting game before in their lives, and Bob is willing to put in the work to be good, I want him to be rewarded as quickly as possible. The sooner he is curbstomping Joe, the better. This way, if Joe is willing to put in the work, he will also be rewarded as quickly as possible, and catch up to Bob in no time flat. And if he’s not willing, then he will never be good, so why string him along?
As for complaining about not getting new fighting games, I don’t see how complaining about the new fighting games being awful is an improvement. The rate at which genuine good fighting games release has not actually changed at any point since like 2000. The only thing that SF4 revived was bad fighting games.
There’s nothing wrong with watching buttons being pressed at neutral. Hell, it’s what I enjoy most from both playing and spectator perspectives. But 5, at least right now, is not as exciting to watch, for the most part. Honestly, the only people I like watching in 5 are Fuudo and Xian because of their intelligent approaches to neutral.
Agreed. Hard work and preparation should be rewarded, not frowned upon. It doesn’t mean I’m an elitist for having the opinion that the person who put in 10,000 hours of work shouldn’t be losing to the person who put in 1,000 hours of work. A second-year boxer shouldn’t be knocking out guys like Mayweather and Pacquiao. White belts in any art should not be outstriking or outsparring black belts.
So I read Jiyuna’s tweet about Daigo. He’s not ready for Evo, but mainly focused on Capcom Cup results because he’s **not **sure V will continue to be played next yr. Any reason why he’d think something like that? From what I recall, Daigo likes the game, so I doubt that’s the issue. I think this might be a case of V’s lack of an Arcade release affecting its longevity in Japan. Most people believe it didn’t matter, but I always thought this was bad for Japan’s SF scene. SFV would still be played here in the US, but I’m curious as to why he believes that. If there’s no V, there’s no Capcom Cup.
Yeah, I agree. The lack of an Arcade release wouldn’t affect CC from still taking place across the world, so I doubt it won’t be played next yr. The game has too much going for it to end that quickly.
This might be a dumb question, and i know, $$$$, but why DOESNT Capcom release an arcade version. Don’t ArkSys, Namco and SNK release arcade versions of their fighting games? Doesn’t Capcom have bigger budgets than them?
Most thought the deal with Sony didn’t allow it, but Ono said it’s because the Japanese Arcade’s are different now:
Sounds like BS since the SF4 series did fine there. My guess is the console route is much cheaper overall. KOF 14 is SNK’s first time releasing the game on console without an Arcade port.
They most likely just wanted to focus purely on the console market where theyd be making the most money initially. I believe an arcade version is still possible down the road
[/quote]
Agreed. Hard work and preparation should be rewarded, not frowned upon. It doesn’t mean I’m an elitist for having the opinion that the person who put in 10,000 hours of work shouldn’t be losing to the person who put in 1,000 hours of work. A second-year boxer shouldn’t be knocking out guys like Mayweather and Pacquiao. White belts in any art should not be outstriking or outsparring black belts.
[/quote]
Who are the new guys knocking out the Justin Wong’s and Daigo’s of the world at this point?
In that “high damage game” that was SF4 you needed to spend a lot of ressources to punish a whiffed DP properly and the window frame for doing that wasn’t very big either. In SF5 a whiffed or blocked DP is at least 30% of your lifebar that flies away like nothing. In both games people continued to try wakeup shoryus even if you blocked them once - even worse, in SF4 you could simply spend a bar to continue spamming safely.
I’d simply like to know what specific game you have in mind when you think of those heavy punishments. None of them has ever been part of the SF series AFAIK.
I sometimes wonder by reading you guys, how many pros did you actually see losing to new players in SFV? As gorillacat stated, if this game was so generous towards noobs then we would see tons of new faces easily beating veterans. What we have in all top 8 though is the same guys that were winning in last 7 years. Some people in other threads even stated that it’s actually harder to get random wins in SFV than in SFIV.
No, more neutral isn’t a free pass for beginners. The hard work in learning how the game works and in becoming able to read the player tendencies is still rewarded.
In the end, I think you both have a weird conception of how hard work is rewarded in a fighting game. You seem to think that a match should be like a pension in retirement years for people who worked their whole life. A match is rather the place where all the work you put in the game will make you able to overcome every kind of weird tactics without many issues.
The reward for lifting is not a big chocolate cake, but being able to lift heavy objects with ease. If you expect to win just because you think you trained hard then you’re probably not that good as a player.
You are literally arguing for stupidity here. Literally. Saying people can’t learn off of one mistake? How old are these people? 3?
The fact that you would need to have something happen 4 times or more in order to learn is an example of what I’m talking about. They DONT learn because to them, it was an RPS guess. So make the same guess next time and maybe it will work, maybe it won’t, nothing learned.
But in high damage, that mistake doesn’t come with the caveat of “it’s just a guess” when you get hit for half life no meter combos as a punish, you learn quickly that no matter how you want to spin it, that guess that you made was an absolute mistake. This is what makes it easier to learn. There are fewer ambiguous scenarios and more clear cut ones. That allows players to learn much faster.
But no, what you want is a game to coddle the weak and hand hold people’s skill in check. Balance by Nerfing the upper players. The upper players still win. They just don’t win with nearly as much disrespect as they could normally use. I have to actually play against bad players nowadays. Like think a bit. This is very bad because they aren’t worthy of thought, yet. No one is saying that I or anyone else that is a decent player is losing to these bad players. What I’m saying is it takes longer, is less engaging, more boring and the people I play against on the whole, that are bad, don’t learn. How in the hell is that good for the community? It ain’t good for baddies and it ain’t good for better players.
As it is now I just use bad players to practice my baiting cause that’s all there literally is to do in this game against bad players.
And fuck you and this “elitist” talking point that you newbs spew out all the time. It isn’t elitist to ask that people have a minimum level of competency and that competitive games uphold that.
It isn’t bad to have strong tactics in a fighting game that better players can use to crush those that are weaker ESPECIALLY when said tactics, such as strong, damaging throws enforce a certain amount of skill at said game.
Strong throws do this:
Enforce good ability to AA since if you block a jumpin, you are going to be dealing with a strong throw mixup.
Teach players where they went wrong by showing them in a direct fashion what lead to the throw.
Force players to have good/active YET ACCURATE footsies for keeping dashes in check while simultaneously being able to AA well and mount their own offense.
Give bad/inexperienced players a thing to strive for/mixup in the neutral, that takes little execution, yet a lot of strategy…and is thus a win/win for them and better players alike.
Strong throws should be balanced by making them non loopable. That was the primary thing ST got wrong with regards to throws. However, throws should be much harder to throw escape and they should do more damage in sf5 and just leave the other person at neutral after getting thrown. This would make this game so much better I can’t even fathom why people don’t get it. Players would have a reason to not back up and play the baiting game all day, players would be more offensive trying to get off that juicy throw. Personally I would like it if all throws did 200 damage, had way more range, and were slightly harder to tech, but none allowed for a throw mixup on hit, even in the corner. The game would be close to magical at that point and the primary thing they would need to do after that would be make certain specials do good chip and be cancelable and be even on block with good pushout to eleviate this lack of safe non turn based 2 in 1’s most characters have.
“But no, what you want is a game to coddle the weak and hand hold people’s skill in check. Balance by Nerfing the upper players. The upper players still win. They just don’t win with nearly as much disrespect as they could normally use. I have to actually play against bad players nowadays. Like think a bit. This is very bad because they aren’t worthy of thought, yet. No one is saying that I or anyone else that is a decent player is losing to these bad players. What I’m saying is it takes longer, is less engaging, more boring and the people I play against on the whole, that are bad, don’t learn. How in the hell is that good for the community? It ain’t good for baddies and it ain’t good for better players.”
Would you rather have some artificial skill gap made of OS/execution separating good from “bad” players? How is that a more rewarding way to beat them than actually having to outplay them?
Winning from a technical/execution gap is just about the same as beating a new player with some move that they just haven’t learned to block yet and doing that over and over until they lose.
“I have to actually play against bad players nowadays.”
I said a lot more things in there besides this. And I actually answered your question in the above post to a certain extent. I don’t think taking execution out of a game is great, but I also don’t think that making a game strictly about hard ass dark ages execution, is a good thing either.
This is one reason why I LIKE certain things in sf5 like easy AA jabs that allow not so fast players to still play fundamentally well (I’m actually in this court as far as being a slow player with average reactions)
And it’s also the reason why I want stronger throws… Lower execution barrier as a whole, more damage for a correct read/guess. Good for newbs and good players alike, teaches proper streetfighter fundamentals… Win win for basically everyone.
The easy input buffer is another thing I really like about sf5. When I say the game holds people’s hands I’m not actually talking about execution, I’m talking about the linear turn based wrote guessing game the game has that turns near everything into -2 sf5 shitty ass “it’s your turn now” gameplay.
I generally agree…except the game still has bizarre shadow pixelation shit in it and amateurish looking clipping garbage. It straight-up looks unfinished.
Agreed. Hard work and preparation should be rewarded, not frowned upon. It doesn’t mean I’m an elitist for having the opinion that the person who put in 10,000 hours of work shouldn’t be losing to the person who put in 1,000 hours of work. A second-year boxer shouldn’t be knocking out guys like Mayweather and Pacquiao. White belts in any art should not be outstriking or outsparring black belts.
[/quote]
Who are the new guys knocking out the Justin Wong’s and Daigo’s of the world at this point?
[/quote]
Well, Phenom is no chump but he beat Daigo last weekend. Chris Tatarian won WCW which had J Wong, PR Rog, and Ricki. Chris also has a win over Fuudo. Chris has always been strong, but I don’t really recall him beating/outplacing this many top players.
Lol okay, lil buddy. You seem to have missed the point. I’ll break it down for you.
So in SD, our three most prominent OG players are Viscant, Genghis, and Gene Wong. All are top 8 EVO placers. They have about a decade of experience each. These guys still place top 4 or 5 in our locals every time they show up. Genghis and Gene Wong still win the 3S tournaments we have here, too. The first thing I notice whenever I see them play is their awareness in spacing at all times. The spacing itself is much tighter compared to other players we have here, which includes SD Pnoy, who is our best SF player right now, who holds wins over sponsored players such as K Brad, Chris G, and Mago. A decade of watching the screen carefully and measuring spacing, I shouldn’t be surprised. But the fact that these three are so good and consistent about it, and the fact that it’s this specific three, strongly implies that there is a relationship between years of experience and spacing precision. This doesn’t even go into how consistently well they judge psychology and whatnot, but their respective mind games are strong, too. But just know that these guys all still consistently place top 5 in local tournaments. In short, that’s the value of accumulated experience.
So, I think you have a weird conception of how hard work is rewarded in a fighting game. You seem to think that a match is entirely decided in-game, when the fact of the matter is that it isn’t. Essentially what a win comes down to is preparation. You practice a situation for an accumulated amount of hours. That way, in game, you analyze or recognize a situation, you think about what your counter is, and then you execute it. And the more you practice it, the more consistent you are in executing your plan properly. The more you practice it, the quicker you recognize the situation when it starts to happen, like jump-ins or dash-ins, for example.
By the way, your analogy sucks. The reward for preparing is that you’re prepared.
My personal feeling in reading these lines is that years of playing fighting games have inflated your ego to the point you can’t conceive that you still have to put some effort into winning against those that you consider worse players - for no other particular reason that they force you to guess 2 or 3 times more instead of just pressing a button at the beginning of the round and then steamroll them. You, in other words, have decided by default which opponents are challenging and which aren’t, and seemingly forgot that the challenge in a fighting game happens in every frame.
This way of thinking seems to me pretty weird considering the current state of affairs. Fighting games are changing. FG developers are learning and trying to change what made the FGC such a small niche. All of them are putting more or less advanced tutorials and even sometimes frame data within the game. Long gone are the days where a small number of people had to dig into the well-kept secrets of the Capcom mastermind to find out how the mechanics work and win more games.
Maybe you’d prefer sparring your whole life with Daigo and Tokido, and that would be an honorable life goal indeed. But think about it: more people that can get into the game means more people that can potentially get good enough to put up a fight against you. In the long run, nobody would really want a small community where you only fight the same people over and over; you want variety of opponents and a new challenge each time. You also want that the developers support the game, which means that enough people buy it to grant them the funds they need to improve it. That’s why you want an honest game where players are rewarded for reading and being unpredictable, even at the cost of some crazy YOLO.
New players can’t be unpredictable anyway. The all-RPS situation you describe never really happens in an actual match against a beginner. You know they’ll gonna DP on wakeup. You know they’ll spam jab or sweep when up close. You know they’ll fall for all your frame traps. The only difference is that you’ll need to apply your reading knowledge during the whole match instead of just punishing the first mistake and then go to the next opponent.
And this happens even in SFV, doesn’t it? People like Infil who train on the game 12 hours a day know perfectly what’s happening, can recognize what the opponent is going to do and are able to win neutral over and over against anyone. They don’t need that the game feeds them because “oh fuck, I spent all my life on this game, I deserve to have an easy win against those scrubs”.
In the world top 100 of SFV there are literally only 3 or 4 guys that are 16ers or 14ers. All other players have 5 to 20 years of experience in fighting games. Some of them fare worse than before, some of them better, but that’s always to be expected since no game is equally suited for everyone. In the end, SFV is still very far from the noob-friendly game you talk about.
By the way, you still didn’t give me an example of a game with less neutral and heavier punishment for mistakes that you want SFV to take inspiration from.
A big part of whats missing for me is that the game seems to be stuck in neutral as other people have pointed out. I feel like the game boils down to just trading blockstrings, frame trapping and whiff punishing and spice in the occasional throw or cross up and that’s just not enough for me to feel the same excitement I got from IV. People shit on FADC and how it grants “second chances” but really the universal quick rises and back rolls have the same effect, just not at expense of two bars. Think about it, SRK>FADC let you escape pressure and reset neutral, and so do kip ups in V… On top of that, I wish that everyone’s normals didn’t feel so stubby, slow and so negative on block.
Okay, so that covers the top 100, but it doesn’t cover all the other tournament players across the world. Top players have told me that it’s harder to get consistent results in this game because it’s very guess-heavy. And Infiltration does work hard, but he’s hardly a good example to use. He placed at EVO his very first year playing, the guy’s a prodigy amongst prodigies. Kind of similar to how I’m not using Nuckledu as an example even though he started playing in 2012 and wrecked Infiltration twice (and I hope we all remember how dominant Infiltration was in 2012) and is still a top player.
Anyways, I didn’t exactly say the game was noob-friendly. I actually think it’s easier for me to not lose against people who I shouldn’t be losing to, compared to USF4. I got scrubbed out way more often than I do now. But I do think after a certain level in the intermediate area, the game becomes a less intelligible RPS game due to the input lag more than anything. It’s too hard to react to anything consistently. As a result, people are abusing dash-ins and jump-ins a lot more. What Gene Wong told me when I first started playing with him was that when he started winning, it’s because he started playing really gay.
I didn’t say there’s a game with less neutral and heavier punishment for mistakes. You must have me confused with someone else.