Except those past games still required you to play good fundamentals to get access to the nuttiness. IV added so many things that bypassed what many here think of traditional SF footsies, including an option to press two buttons to totally ignore good pokes (not even parry what that bad, since it had a high-low component).
Also, V borrows alot mechanically from SFIII, specifically 3S, from things like the normal priority system, the emphasis on single hit confirms, and even the general frame data. Same with the meter management. Where getting super is supposed to be a big momentum changer. The difference is that weāre limited to one stock to avoid some of the brokenness of 3S. At the same time, as with the III series, EXās have mostly taken the place of level 1 and 2 supers
Air guard in SF does not work like you think it does. Jumping was still a bad idea in Alpha/CvS2. Air guard only worked against air-to-air. All standing anti-airs would beat air guard.
Alot of what was taken out were things that people specifically did not like about IV.
Meanwhile, the damage in V is about par, or actually even lower than most older games. Itās only the previous generation that damage values went down, for what many here will say for the worse. The lower damage of alot of the previous generation of games has, IMO made them feel less hype, and more tedious. Additionally, thereās less emphasis placed on footsies and fundamentals since you get less out of that, and more on execution and abare.
Speaking of which, another general trend these days, that IMO is for the better, is games focusing once again on fundamentals. Itās not just SFV. Look at the King of Fighters XIV and all he changes from XIII that are meant to make the former play more like older games such as KOF 98. The latter place a much higher emphasis on fundamentals, curing what many saw as a problem with XIII, where there was much more focus on abare into long combos.
You keep saying that SF4 made it so that you didnāt need fundamentals to win, which is very disagreeable. The only people winning tournaments were the people with amazing fundamentals. Which is why the same people winning tournaments in 4 are the same people winning tournaments now.
Focus did make it so that you could bypass good pokes. Thatās probably the point. But it was a low risk/low reward move in those situations. How do you beat focus if they keep focusing your good pokes? Jump at that range. Donāt press that button at that range. Do an armor breaking move at that range. The answers are fundamentally simple.
And going to the topic of good pokes in SF4, those normals reached really far. Bison stand forward. Chunās sweep and stand strong. Every button on Rose. There is no equivalent in SF5 because they took out all the range, except for like Birdie stand forward. Thatās why SF4 needed focus and 5 doesnāt.
Kinda figures that the people complaining about 4 being bad arenāt doing well in 5. SF4 didnāt have bad fundamentals. Itās just complainers had a sub par understanding of the gameās fundamentals.
EDIT: Yeah, just went through your YouTube channel. Seems like your fundamentals need work. I know they were netplay, I know those matches were week 1 or 2, but for someone who actually spent time on the beta, even your knowledge of spacing and risk/reward were a bit subpar.
Its going to take a while before people are honest about the good and bad about SF4. So before I make a more involved post on why SF5 plays the way it does Iād like to strike down this notion that you could get away with having little fundamentals in SF4. That wasnāt the case for a large amount of cast.
People also need to be honest about how fraudulent the divekick game was for some characters in how easy it let them close the gap against other characters with little effort. Similarly the oki game of some characters (Akuma being the worst offender for a large amount of the gameās lifespan) would let people hide their lack of ground game by rewarding them disproportionately for spending time on set ups. This part isnāt even up for argument given how Cammy played in 2012 and Akuma did for a long time.
Iāll get into why shimmies are so much better than crouch teching; because some of you are experiencing a whole new level of forgetfulness when it comes to some of the design decisions in SF5.
I like SF5 as of right now and had a love/hate relationship with SF4. Why ?
Because SF4 was fun at the start then it got progressively worse for me with all of these option selects, and crazy tech that really bypass the natural idea behind fighting games and that is making crucial split second choices. Then it evolved into a super vortex style game that wasnāt fun in the least.
I had enough of playing as Cody and basically fighting the mechanics of the game as well as my opponents. Crouch teching, invincible backdashes, and crazy option selects on knock downs.
In SF5 i feel that i can just hop in and compete with pure fighting game knowledge and have a decent fighting chance. Who knows, maybe in the future things will be different but as of right now SF5 is much better.
Also, people should keep in mind that this is the 1st version of SF5. People seem to really forget that fact for some reason.
I also dislike these kinds of arguments that usually explicitly state that SF4 bypassed making crucial split second choices.
Meaties beat crouch techs.
OSes beat backdashes. If your character canāt OS viably, then just hold forward and punish their backdash.
Option selects were done meaty. Therefore, reversals beat option selects.
Vortex ended with the Ultra update.
Your argument basically boils down to you not wanting to evolve with SF4 as the meta of the game evolved.
SF5 right now is a pretty bare bones game with an undeveloped meta and thatās the reason why you have a ādecent fight chance.ā Once the meta evolves, youāll probably hate 5, too.
Yup. And donāt get me wrong, thereās a lot less bullshit in V, and I enjoy that greatly. But the idea that 4 required less fundamentals is really stupid.
The only thing Iām not liking about SFV is the lack of zoning. I feel that for all of the good fundamentals that were added back into the game, they took out a lot of fundamentals as well. I HATE that they got rid of decent zoning, and made fireballs worse. So this mean the entire game is basically a mid range RPS fest, almost like a 3d game. Perhaps theyāll balance this out with future rebalances. But I feel theyāve made the game newb friendly in that for the MOST part people can bypass decent zoning.
Iām a little salty in what they did to Guile. For a game sorely needing a true zoner, they pretty much nerfed all of his zoning tools. So basically Guile is going to have to be a rushdown character, which heās really not all that great at. But my question is why? I did a poll on a Facebook SFV group not too long ago, about what people identify as their playstyle. 90% of the people who responded were self-identified rushdown players. And SFV is definitely a rushdown game. Itās all rush, all the time, and that shit just fucking sucks.
Anyway, I have no issues playing an aggressive Guile, since Iāve been using the character for years. But I just wish newer players who are going to pick up Guile got to see how brilliant his gameplay style is. To me, theyāve made him brainless, but I guess Iāll have to see.
Im pretty sure Dieminion and KnuckleDu will be zoning more than rushing down. Hes still a zoner. Maybe your Guile will be rushing down, but he doesnāt need to.
Yeah I played against a solid Guile online earlier and he barely even walked forward vs my Chun. Always getting access to 2 hit booms means even other projectile characters are forced to move in on you.
Sonic booms are easier to reaction jump to, so there is no point in using them from anywhere but full screen. Sure if you want to jump in at Guile from 3/4th the screen, then yeah, youāll get flashkicked. But if youāre at sweep range, where traditionally he had enough time to AA you, heās still recovering. This a HUGE loss in his zoning game. His anti airs also arenāt what they use to be either. Seems like his most reliable anti-air is really just standing jab. But you canāt center your zoning game around that.
Right now people just jump too much, so Guile is an amazing scrub killer for that. But I feel later on heās going to have issues if youāre going to center your game around pure zoning that is. His sonic cross is alright, but it has a ton of startup. People arenāt use to it. I play a lot of Guileās in the mirror who love to spam that shit out, and I jump jump at them anytime I see it. And if he does the sonic boom, just jump in, the recovery isnāt that good.
Now from full screen, YES Guileās zoning isnāt so bad. But why would you ever be full screen vs Guile in this game when you donāt need to be. Your anti fireball tools will get you into sweep range where Guile canāt do shit but hold those jump ins.
I think at the end of the day, his zoning is just going to serve as a tool to get him in. His A2A game has also taken a lot of hits as well. Only reliable A2A is really j. jab. And maybe an air throw if you have a decent read on him.
But I do think the sonic boom recovery is enough nerf to really make his zoning a lot less ineffective. I can say for certain heās NOT going to be a pure zoner.
Of course, but his normals also go nerfed and theyāre stubby. His cr.mk is not terrible, but itās not the cr.mk we all know and love. It has more range, but is less safe on block. In general Guileās footsies are below average in SFV. Actually I wouldnāt mind the sonic boom nerf if his normals were decent. But theyāre not. So all he really has is cr.mp, cr.lk, and cr.jab. I could be completely wrong about any of this, but I think the general consensus among Guile players is that his pokes are garbage.
Edit: He has b.FP, but itās not even close to how it was in SFIV. But I guess itās decent enough. In general you probably donāt want to be pressing too many buttons with Guile in sweep range, because due to their recovery youāll probably just get jumped on. You can of course bait with cr.jabs and cr.shorts, but thatās going to only last so long when people realize he really doesnāt have anything you should be scared of at that range.
Donāt get me wrong, I think Guile is super fun in SFV. But I think his zoning game is WORSE than it was in vanilla SFIV where they initially nerfed the living fuck out of his sonic boom recovery. In that game Guile kind of had to go on the offense there too. I see the same thing happening in this game.