Anyone else not buying into the SFV hype?

Street Fighter V
683

No it’s just how anything that’s popular works. The people who like the game just aren’t vocal and are just having fun. Those that don’t like what they’re seeing are more vocal and make a situation look more dire. Those 4,000 people don’t need to say much, they know they like competing in SFV or the game in general and will be there in July.

Same thing happened with Killer Instinct. Everyone complained that the game’s UI wasn’t old school enough and the characters didn’t look old school enough and the game just didn’t have enough people playing to have more than one year at Evo. You always heard more bitching, but at the end of the day you knew you liked what you were playing and it’s still showing up at Evo.

684

This reminds me of how Seth or Sirlin would describe these situations of both players doing nothing (the “double nothing” as Seth would call them). They’re oftentimes situations where both players end up going through multiple layers of yomi, aka where both re thinking “I know that you know that I know what you think I’m going to do”, which leads to these situations where they conclude that the first player to flinch will likely lose (since both players have gotten the read on each other).

These situations actually highlight the mental side of Street Fighter (and fighting games in general), where a good part of being good is simply learning the art of yomi - reading the mind of your opponent.

You forgot the Rose vs Chun match up where Rose can just sit a couple of pixels outside her low strong range and tell Chun Li to fuck off.

685

@d3v @Pertho

I think after this I’m going to be done with this topic for the sake of everyone else on the board. I feel like I’m not articulating correctly or something is being miscommunicated. I’ll take one last crack at it with this:

• I said SF5 had a staggering amount of “non-play”. I didn’t say it was bad for a game to have “non-play”, I just said SF5 has an abundance of it.
• This was based off of my experience playing the game so far. Other people have had different experiences–fair enough.
• It’s presumptuous to think that SF4 was my first fighting game. It’s also incorrect.
• There can be a huge wall that comes up from “tenured” players when it appears that an “SF4 player” is “attacking traditional Street Fighter meta values” (i.e. footsies, shimmying, etc.).
• There’s no need for that wall in this case. I’m not the person who thinks that SF4 is the blueprint for all fighting games. I’m not that guy. I don’t base my SF5 opinion around my SF4 experience. Nor do I base it around my 3S experience or my CvS2 experience. Yes–I played SF4. No–I don’t think it is the basis for all fighting games.
• Giving me examples of other games where “non-play” exists (or passive or indirect or whatever) DOES NOT address my point.
• My point is…that based on my own experience…based on what I’ve seen in high level play in tournaments…SF5 has far too much conservative play to be considered an attractive fighter.
• To reiterate–GIVING ME EXAMPLES OF OTHER GAMES WHERE PASSIVE PLAY EXISTS (GAMES THAT I’VE PLAYED), DOES NOT ADDRESS MY POINT. This is why I didn’t compare SF5 to any other games in the first place. This is why I made it a point not to do that.
• You want to carry the torch for the “old ways” and “fundamentals” and classify me as the person who’s attacking that? You think it’s impressive to watch two top level players hold down-back for 14 straight seconds at full screen? You think that illustrates mental prowess? You think that’s some kind of science or art? You think people want to see that? Rad. Really–sincerely. But I don’t see it. And my opinion is that it’s shit. My opinion is that I would like to see a game with a bit more balance to it than that. Especially given how much we’ve paid for it and how bad the operational side of the game has been.
• @Pertho - Let’s say it’s like you what you’re implying: I know nothing and you know everything. You have ALL the data, ALL the history…you think that I don’t know who Valle is or that I don’t know any of these “old school” things that you want medals for bringing up…let’s say that this is true (which it isn’t)… … …are you telling me that this is how you would welcome in a “new” player to the “community”? With textbook elitism? Not with, “Hey what’s your tag, maybe I can help you out with some sets.” Not with, “Yeah, maybe this game just isn’t for you. Sorry bud.” For as much as you know you’ve managed to miss my point completely, presume to know when I started playing fighting games, and not do ANYTHING to help people want to play this game.

Thanks for the discussion though. I’m glad people are having fun with the game and that I might be a statistical outlier. Really.

686

I will admit that i haven’t read the following posts but…

It is funny as hell that your avi is a pic of Rufus. I am sure the only time anyone ever found Rufus fun to watch is when Justin lost to Gamerbee after saying Adon is ass.

oh… Yeah and that one time Ghandi beat that Rufus player. I really don’t mean or intend to give you shit and honestly don’t really care about the conversation at hand. I did just stop to laugh at the irony.

687

I agree. The only people that are complaining about this game happens to be '09ers that expected this game to play like SF IV & it’s iterations in which they’ve never played a real, actual SF game before, like this game, Super Turbo, Alpha 2/Zero 2, & 3rd Strike in terms of better gameplay.

688

edit: nvm

689

Really, someone is arguing that this game is lame? If anything, this game is a brain dead mash button fest.

690

Lots of wakeup jabs. Lots of mashing medium punches. Lots of mashed reversals. I don’t think the game is lame, we don’t really know what the game is or is supposed to be yet though.

691

Not true. I’ve also heard 3S players, MVC2 players, and hell, even Viscant make complaints about the game. Yes, a lot of '09ers are complaining, but that’s because all of the '09ers are active in tournament and still making efforts to make it out to majors, whereas the majority of the OGs aren’t even playing competitively anymore.

Meanwhile, 09ers like Infiltration, Chris T, and Nuckledu are winning tournaments. Lol.

692

People can disagree all they want. They are factually wrong if they do.

There is less variety in any given match of SFV compared to any given SF3 or SF4 match. It’s a fact. SFV has nothing as exciting as a parry in SF3 and it has nothing as exciting as FADC’s and the shenanigans of SF4.

A lot of people shit on SF4, but it’s capable of a large variety of matches because of it’s mechanics. Seth vs. El Fuerte…SFV has nothing like that. I don’t even need to bring up SF3…do I?

SFV does not have a lot of variety as of right now. Too many matches are clones of each other. In other words, predictable and boring to watch.

693

This 09er’s stuff is ridiculous. A lot of people on Shoryuken forum’s are genuine fighting game fans and have been for a long time. (I’ve been here for more then 10 yrs but due to inactivity my old account is gone.)

The hate for SF4 is odd. Arguments that it doesn’t play like a SF game and is the worst SF ever. Each SF series plays considerably different and had it’s quirks and shenanigans (What about Alpha 1’s magic series or Alpha 3 and the abomination that was v-ism + juggling, which at the same time was really fun.) With SF4, you can do everything you can in SFV (outside of game specific mechanics.) Shimmy, footsies, spacing etc… existed in SFIV too and were better with a far stronger mind game on top of the added technical and execution required.

Greenwood’s post explains it perfectly. SFV is too rigid.

Pit mirror matches of SF4 chars against SFV. SF4 generally had much stronger footsies and would win. They advertise sfv as being offense orientated. Well guess which game had scarier offense, it’s definitely not the latter. (All you ever hear is shimmy, i wonder why…)The difference is you could also play the chars in far more varying ways and even turtle well. Hate turtling all you want but it’s a viable strat in games and sports. SFV is an anti turtle friendly SF and that kinda makes it less of an SF game.

SFV limits itself further by following SFIII’s one super per character, but without multi bars or the option of choosing between supers and instead opted for high damage. The strategy and options it adds. You weren’t jumping at Hakan if he had his ultra 2, you’d think twice about your options on wake up or frame traps with his ultra 1 and then you had his super, countering projectiles, whiffs, catch from long range etc… (The second ultras did come in a later iteration but you still had 1 ultra and super in vanilla.)

Take Karin at high level for example. With her only safe special being orochi, all you see when it comes to combo strings is double mediums into Orochi or rare sappo’s with jab after, outside of hit confirms and CH or crush (unless you have trigger). Making her rekka a v-trigger (which is one of the worst triggers,) Nerfed her sappo from beta so she can’t really cross up without meter. She’s a mix-up style character, who can’t even do it that well. SFV limited her a lot

As more people get use to her, she becomes more limited and relies on her incredibly strong neutral game and only opens up her arsenal when varying factors such as high stun bar or fear come into play to slow down reads and reaction. It’s not a post saying she is weak, she is strong. It’s just you won’t see variation on her play-style. And that goes for many of the cast.

SFV does feel fresh and I love the differences in characters. Ken and Ryu have never been so different and I wouldn’t mind seeing what they do with other shotos (even though i’m not a shoto fan.) Triggers are pretty cool too. I think it has a lot of potential with later seasons, but for now i think the biggest problem is variety. SF has never been the strongest on first iterations of a new series.

694

I’m not sure I like Seth vs Fuerte type matches as “variety” any ways. There’s nothing that plays like Seth vs Fuerte in Alpha 3 or CVS2 and I think that’s a good thing. It’s just too scrambly like the game is not sure it wants to be a SF game or an anime game. It’s more variety for the sake of variety than variety that fits within the lines of how a SF match should play out. People never liked playing against those characters (at least I don’t remember anyone that legitimately liked fighting them). Therefore a mirror will either look super awesome like something out of an anime game, or just another wild ass SFIV match where people are going HAM and not really beating each other in a neutral game.

People joke around that Poongko is in tears over V because he can’t just play 100 percent gutty with characters that disrespect neutral and win matches.

I think one super is enough for now. Especially when V Trigger is in the mix which changes the neutral for a lot of characters. It gives you a little time for your character to increase their options in the matchup without making them nutty the entire match either. Overall I think the game just needs more characters so people are seeing more types of characters do different things. I think characters like Juri and Urien will fill that more anime inspired gap that people need to see shit going on and what not, but more characters like them will come with time also.

695

How should an SF match be played? As i mentioned Alpha 1 added the magic series (chain attacks and create your own target combo), which is nothing like other street fighters. And the sequels introduced Air block, multiple supers and levels, air & roll recovery, alpha counters, juggles, v-ism: custom combos and ridiculous unlimited combos, juggles from any hit confirm and it was easy to open up defense.

SFIII introduced parry which alone totally changed the meta. Between the game speed and parry’s, the games played out very differently to other sf games. We also had big Juggles, super cancel, universal overheads, super jump, ex and variety in length and number for super bars. From the sounds of it, Alpha, III and IV series were all nutty. Since they all had big combos and all sorts of crazy mechanics.

I feel all sf’s have a familiar feel yet feel fresh with the changes. Generally take solid mechanics from previous series and add new ones on top. Clearly as i’ve mentioned they play vastly different. But SFV took a lot out and didn’t add enough to compensate.** ‘It’s more variety for the sake of variety’** is the sort of thing you here in HOTS VS Dota & LOL (especially when they don’t understand it well.) Why don’t we just take all the mechanics out and make it like world warriors (which was amazing for its time.)

SFIV had some whack stuff. But it’s not like you couldn’t play the game with solid fundamentals and not beat other players. Only at the pro level did it matter. Look at all the things players have learnt. Even years later people are learning new things. What new things do you think we’ll see from Infiltration’s Nash? What more can Nash do? (He’s been playing like that since beta.) He’s got an amazing v-trigger; But it’s just one move (with great variety in uses) and that’s it. He goes back to his neutral game. You can hate or like Killer instinct but its instinct mode are more interesting v-triggers.

My favourite is Cody. And second maybe Urien, so it’ll be interesting to see how they play out, well if Cody comes… Juri has multi hit specials and great zoning…And Urien has Aegis shenanigans. I don’t see how they add to the anime inspired gap. Which i’m not sure is what I would call it.

I do agree with the cast, since i know quite a few (myself included) who have trouble finding a main.

696

Did people hang out and shit on SF4 for months after it came out because it wasn’t SF3?

697

I remember people raving about how balanced vanilla SF4 was at launch.

698

For 7 years I’m pretty sure

699

Everybody takes turns shitting on the new game.

Nothing new.

700

I’m sorry, how is SFIV not a "real SF game?"
I’ve noticed that most people who hate on SFIV are those who complain about the execution barrier and the “vortex/mix up” game because they never learned how to block.

701

Except the older games didn’t really play that nutty.

Alpha 2 was still basically ruled by good fundamentally sound characters. Chun-Li controlling space with good pokes, Rose with low strong all day. Air block didn’t matter since most anti airing was done with standing normals, and Alpha air blocking only works air to air.

Same with CvS2, which is basically the refinement of the Alpha series. The game can get really turtley with characters with good pokes like Sagat, Cammy, Vega, etc. Even after the game opened up (with CCs, RCs, etc.) those characters were still pretty decent.

Same with 3rd Strike. For all the stuff it introduced, the game was absolutely dominated by fundamental characters. You still had Chun and Ken enforcing a good ground game. All the gimmicky, nutty shit was in the lower tiers, most of whom never make it out to tournaments.

The thing with those games (and SFV) is that there was still a strong emphasis on the ground game and simply walking forward and putting hitboxes in front of you. SFIV had less of that thanks to mechanics like focus as well as characters who were designed to get past that from the get go.

702

You just said the older games didn’t play nutty. What about alpha 1 and especially 3? Alpha 3 should have been the best of the series, just the v-ism unlimiteds ruined the game. It’s the nuttiest thing in the SF series. Alpha 2 is a perfect example of how exciting meter was. You had a variety of supers, multiple power levels and had many opportunities to use them. SFV went for a super that is more akin to a full meter ultra which is easier to land. Heavy on cinematic and not often used.

I agree to some extent. The cast being a bit wild hurt the game more than anything. But I kinda liked the crazy cast and problems aside it had my favorite of SF casts. A good mix of old and new. Just Seth…Well Poongko had his moments.

I’m not the biggest fan of turtles. But hey play the way you want, that’s how it should be. Zoning and spacing have been a big aspect of many SF games.

Things like air guard and parry are things most people would be against. If SFV was to come out with the choice to vote either parry or fadc what do you think would win the vote?

With the way gamers are now days, companies seem to take far less risks. Their is less playstyle variation and with SFV going back to the basics (which is fine.) It didn’t add too many new things (some new aren’t all that interesting either.) Even V-trigger (lot of potential) is hit and miss.

They took out so much that was good. Didn’t have all these cool and well thought out mechanics to speed up the pacing and make fights feel exciting. They compensated the lack of by making the game high damage which is further complemented by the stun bar and makes it momentum heavy.