Ahahaha.
Well, shit, I’m convinced. You’ve discussed this before? You’re clearly just right then. Also, you claimed you’re right so, checkmate I guess. Good work SRK.
The point is that it’s obviously a terrible comparison. You’re both changing the discussion because you’re wrong.
The robot needed a nerf, and was still EVIDENTLY great even after the nerf. It’s not a matter of opinion. The end.
KBR plays sentinel -> KBR won evo 2015 -> sentinel is op
sometimes I wonder if a true divekick character would be gamebreaking without a universal system like parry or focus which naturally beats it
I don’t think mashing dps is strong in and of itself, but in a game with very few reversals period, the characters with meterless reversal option seem to be the only ones that can keep players honest in a game that heavily promotes offense and lacks defensive options
This is not a good game. For the record I’m not great, I’m middle of the road. I’m Gold league and everything I’ve seen so far is really bad at ALL LEVELS of play.
The amount of “non-play” in this game is staggering. People doing LITERALLY nothing so that you’ll hang yourself. Winning under these conditions brings me no joy. Filipinochamp and filipin0man even had a 14-second “do nothing” stand off in tournament. No one wants to win, they just want their opponent to lose. I’m not saying that’s a bad strategy for how this game is built, I’m saying that it’s a bad game for having that be at the core of the experience. It’s an embarrassment. It really is. Especially when you bundle it with the shitty online experience and other massive operational mistakes in this game (legacy sticks not working, etc.).
There will be high numbers at tournaments until all the new characters are released. Then the game will die out (not to an SFxT level or anything, but it will die out). Straight up: it’s not a good game. Very few characters are fun to watch and almost everyone plays on the back foot. The exceptions to this that I’ve seen are primarily Japanese players. Even then, it wasn’t all that great to watch. I’m not comparing SF5 to other games, I’m just saying I don’t think it’s good on its own merits.
People say “we don’t know enough,” etc. I think we do. I really hope I’m wrong though. I keep playing hahaha. I hope someone can prove me otherwise. I’m not trying to be a dick I’m just giving my opinion. Hope everyone understands.
CvS2 had the longest do nothing period and it was one of the most popular games the scene had.
Welcome to Street Fighter, it isnt push buttons happy fun time.
You can always play R.Mika if you like buttons.
This is a pointless remark
TBH I’m gold, intermediate player too and it’s funny I feel like it’s the opposite
Everyone hits buttons all the time in this somewhat brainless way. I remember people saying Kazunoko is such a madman for mashing wakeup jab in 4, how can he pull that off against top players? No one else really did that
In this game every Chun below 6k that I’ve seen has some instinctive mash jab on wakeup reaction, it’s something primordial that comes from playing the character I’m quite sure
I feel like people are jumping more than I would ever see in other games because the anti air threats just really aren’t there and the risk reward is so heavily skewed in favor of the jumping player that it’s worth it to do over and over, at my rank (~5k) you see so many people that just jump constantly and you beat them and wonder, how did they make it to this rank?
Top level play I get what you mean about being slower paced but for real that is outside of my pay grade so I am less concerned about that meta game there
What I had to say is not about buttons. We can’t default to our timeless defense of SF as being “not buttony” just because that’s what we’ve always done. Read what I wrote. Or don’t comment.
Accuse people of being brainless.
Doesnt take time to think about what he is being told,
Okay.
Never accused anyone of being brainless. Didn’t mention anything about buttons in my original post and all you had to say was something about the frequency at which buttons were pressed. I’m not interested in that. It’s not what I wrote about. I know it’s hard being “Internet forum argument guy” but if you took a little extra time to read and then responded, we could have a meaningful discussion. I’m really hoping someone can prove me wrong! I’d love to be able to enjoy this game! But lazy remarks that are unfounded don’t have a place with me.
Problem is that you’re remarks are lazy, miopic, and with of little historical accuracy. The amount of games that have do nothing moments is really high. SF4 had a lot of matches where things turned into do nothing moments. A lot of what is rewarding about footsies is that you do let your opponent hang himself. Whether you force them or let them do something dumb, the vast majority of SF games have rewarded patience over point blank dive kicks 'cause lols. Some of the dumb shit form SF4 got taken away so people aren’t doing random bullshit on wake up as people have grown accustomed.
Sorry you’re not used to that lame shit and you find yourself in a game somewhat full of it but not really. SF3 had in chun mirrors, ST had it in O.Sagat mirrors and CvS2 gave us the GOAT moment in lame:
[quote=“Pertho, post:676, topic:178560”]
Problem is that you’re remarks are lazy, miopic, and with of little historical accuracy. The amount of games that have do nothing moments is really high. SF4 had a lot of matches where things turned into do nothing moments. A lot of what is rewarding about footsies is that you do let your opponent hang himself. Whether you force them or let them do something dumb, the vast majority of SF games have rewarded patience over point blank dive kicks 'cause lols. Some of the dumb shit form SF4 got taken away so people aren’t doing random bullshit on wake up as people have grown accustomed.
Sorry you’re not used to that lame shit and you find yourself in a game somewhat full of it but not really. SF3 had in chun mirrors, ST had it in O.Sagat mirrors and CvS2 gave us the GOAT moment in lame:
[/quote]I think you’re personally offended, and that’s causing you to not respond objectively. If you love SF5 I’m happy for you (really, I want to enjoy this game). But to define what I said as “lazy” or “myopic*” shows that you didn’t read. I expand in the next paragraph.
I SPECIFICALLY said I’m not comparing SF5 to other games. To say that a bunch of other games show similar traits to what I have a problem with doesn’t prove that those traits are good. It’s the exact same logical fallacy as “everyone else is doing it, so why don’t I?” CvS2, Third Strike, Super Turbo… I’m not talking about these games. I’m not IGNORING that footsies exist in all of these games and that it is a staple of the meta for the franchise. I also don’t define “non-play” as footsies, which it seems like you’re implying. And even with all of your misfires, I’ll respond to what you had to say (though it was irrelevant):
As a historian, you’re spot on. But in terms of addressing my initial takeaways from the game or outlining what progress should look like, I think you’ve lost the plot.
I don’t have any personal problems with you or your opinions. And I’d appreciate if you didn’t throw around baseless adjectives in the future.
The problem here IMO, is the assumption that “lame” is something bad that needs to be addressed, which is an opinion that more than a few people will disagree with.
I believe what Pertho is pointing out by mentioning all these examples from older games, is that being “lame” in them was something that does not take anything away from them and is therefore okay to have in SFV.
With all this hate towards SFV and the whole debacle with its launch and the rage quitting issue. I’m truly amazed that SFV sits at 4k entrants for EVO and counting. Like am I missing something here? Is the prize money alone for Capcom Cup enough to get people to want to play and compete?
100%. I understand that “lame” has come to be a sort of endearing word in the video game community and I understand its importance. And I appreciate your respectful approach.
It’s my opinion that celebrating it (or any variation of its meaning–indirect, conservative, passive, etc.) has finally gotten to an unhealthy point in the meta. That’s all I’m saying. The SF5 flavor of “lame” is not one I feel compelled to laud for the sake of tradition. I think how quickly I’ve seen players default to playing on the counter is a problem–that’s my opinion. Totally game for counterpoints/discussion.
The problem is that he got accustomed to a lot of the uncharacteristic things SF4 did. Compared to everybody else that’s been playing for years, we just accept that its a different game and deal with the way it is. Instead of playing the game he has in front of him, he’d rather say its all shit and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The funny part is that a good majority of the people that’d been playing for years found SF4 to be shit. Just a never ending pile of drudgery that seemed to go on forever. Now that our SF4 youngins get to feel what its like for their game to be left behind, they, unaware of their own irony while doing so, will join the ranks of people complaining about the new game being ass compared to the old one.
Because, I mean, I gave 3 examples of lame things but instead of looking at the qualitative data and going “oh, these games also had similar issue in places” instead he went “Oh, lol these are the only lame things?” So to fix that, let’s look at some incredibly lame match ups that happened with some frequency in some of the older games:
ST
Chun vs Balrog
Zangief vs Balrog
Zangief vs Chun
Ryu Mirrors
Bison vs Honda (Kids don’t even know the struggle here. dare you to hit the wrong button, eat a headbutt and see what that wake up looks like).
Dhalsim vs half the cast
Vega when not Hyubaling the life out of everybody.
O.Hawk vs a chunk of the cast.
CvS2
Is Vega on the screen? Doesn’t matter the groove, its lame.
K-Cammy against the world
C-Sakura or A-Sakura v The World
K-Sagat
C-Ken
C-Guile
K-Blanka (because some people and life)
Matter of fact, not a big projectile game. You have to throw projectiles from similar ranges as in SFV for them to be worthwhile. A lot of characters are holding it down with normals. Put the majority of the cast in the “I’m going to do footsies and cancel into super when you fuck up or go into CC” because that’s what a lot of them are doing.
3S
Now 3S is interesting because there are three characters dedicated to doing something dumb at the beginning of the match: Chun, Ken and Q. The first two are going to mash buttons to build meter and then play footsies and the last one is trying to get free taunts and get in slowly. It was gets balanced out with Yun, Makoto and to an extent dudley rushing that shit down. But you know, all these people playing footsies with stronger throws and trying to get confirms into supers. Here’s a list of people willing to sit there and watch you hang yourself:
Chun-Li
Ken (He is gonna get it two ways: through shorts or crouching forward. Not really “hype”)
Q (He’s got some strong buttons…that’s it really he is just a shitty Chun with a mask 90% of the time)
Urien is also gonna get in that ass through footsies. Vs a chunk of the cast he is going to take his time opening you up
Those are 4 characters absolutely happy doing nothing. 3 of those are common match ups at a high level. Yup, sit there doing nothing and hope your ankles don’t have a bad day.
Alpha 2
Chun-Li still lame as all hell.
Ken is also going to sit there lame as all hell.
Sagat is going to slowly be lame as all hell.
Ryu is going to do to the same thing but faster.
I mean, really, unless its Guy, they are probably trying to lame you out into a CC or a Valle CC; oh and Guy sucks in this game.
Alpha 3
This game is lols.
MvC2
Sentinel Mirrors
Sentinel vs Storm
Storm Mirrors (Hope you like building meter because we’re building meter)
Cable Mirrors
Unless its two Magnetos, being lame and doing nothing netted you a lot. Although this one had a strong zoning game so Sentinel wouldn’t be doing nothing but them air footsies weren’t really trying to get you clipped into a Storm DHC.
We could do dumb shit like go into SC2 or Tekken games or some other ones where its important not to hit buttons and let your opponent hang yourself, but I think we’ve found a lot of the “lame it out for a minute and punish a mistake” scenarios in a lot of games right now.
But here we find the problem. We want to define not doing anything as not playing. Not doing anything in the game is a choice you can make hence while you’re playing, if you choose to do nothing, to quote Rush, “You’d still have made a choice”. Not only that you’re choosing to ignore a fundamental part of how these games have been played for a long god damn time because it doesn’t fit what you think Street Fighter should be in 5. Truth is that you haven’t really addressed what the issue you have with the game is. You probably haven’t done it because instead of pointing out things that are happening it is infintely easier to try and sound smart. So what does happen in SF5:
Pushback is high block keeping blockstrings short.
Pushback is high enough that it sometimes sends you semi-flying out of range of even your longest normal
Throw range is hella short.
Throw range is hilarious short compared to how long push back is making them less threatening than throws in A3.
Normals feel stubby on some characters compared to how long the stages are.
So what you’re driving at is that it is easier to get out of range of normals and then both players are faced with the decision of who is going to go in. This means that the situation when somebody should move forward happens more often. The thing is that we were blessed with the Justin Wong of old that was trained by the Dark Lord Eddie Lee of “Fuck it if I’m going there” style of gameplay where you don’t give people an inch if you don’t need to. Hence when things like these happen, it is a safer bet to wait for an opening than anything else. This is why the game feels like its about waiting for somebody to fuck up: because you can’t get in and stay in for free like you could in SF4 against a lot of characters.
There are other things that contribute to some of this. Recovery on some projectiles is long so they aren’t able to force people forward in ways they used to be able to; movement options for some characters are really good, thus stretching distances at random; you don’t have the level 1 focus dash in special you had in SF4.
So there ya go, a post detailing all the times when you had to do nothing and look for your opponents mistake and some of the reasons why SF5 seems to enter that part of a game more often than others. Too bad you didn’t understand all the times these things have happened in an SF game (I mean, next thing you know we’ll have starcraft without zerg rushes) or point out why is it that a certain ranges where nobody is advantage (which is arguable about how cautious you should be in some of these) happens so often. Take some time and really, really put some thought into it before you get mad at things that’ve been happening since 94.
I do understand. SFV is a game that focuses on defense. You can only do a few crouching shorts and then the opponent is pushed back, making it easy to tech throw and look out for overheads. It certainly hurts frame traps when close standing normal’s are removed as well, making the up close game predictable. Lets not talk about the quick backward rise that makes the opponent separate even more forcing spatial defense. Cross ups are pretty much non existent [few characters being an exception] but even those are easy once used to them because they are so linear.