Akuma's Frame Traps

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
41

Shin, Devil and Kirby:

I’m enjoying reading this thread, I’m learning a lot from it and I’m trying to put it into practice, albeit struggling.

It’d be a shame to see this thread go down the pan because a couple of sentences had their inflection misinterpreted… I swear if you took the street fighter talk out of these posts I would bet money that you all spammed SRK on block.
Please just remember that it’s not easy to tell the tone of written text.

Back to my struggling, I was having trouble when doing it in the corner, my playback jab mashing rog eventually ended up with rog in the corner so I just ran with it:

Are some frame traps ineffective due to the reduced pushback of the corner?

42

I also think that tk ex air fb at c.lk range is a bad BAD idea.

Just sayin’.

43

I understand what you prefer, but the reason for finding this frame trap was to discover natural frame traps that did not require frame tight timing, as I outlined in my original post.

Any delays or stuttering defeats the entire purpose of the frame trap in question - to avoid having to alter your timing to punish a tech.

I am fully aware of Tokido’s setups and why they work. It really has little to do with what I am using the frame trap for.

CR. HP allows you to frame trap without having to time anything. It was one of the points of discovering it.

The cr. HP frame trap works off of dive kicks and jump short. When the opponent blocks these attacks they very rarely are pressing buttons unless they are hugely scrubby. That is why you don’t need to use the hit confirmable St. HP because they won’t be hitting any buttons immediately after jump attack/dive kick.

I’m not saying other frame traps aren’t good, but this one serves a specific purpose and in that purpose is superior to most other options.

Devil - It may be possible that all versions of Akuma’s air fireball had two frames of extra recovery added to them. That could be the reason for the discrepancy between SF4 and Super.

44

I’m going to update the first post so this thread would be more organized, do you guys think this would be alright? (I’ll delete it from this post later and edit the first page if it’s OK):

Edited the main post.

45

Only two things did I notice: “for pressing buttons in the middle of your frame trap strings” I think you meant block strings

and I don’t see cr.lp fs.hp in that list, I thought it was a frame trap?

46

And how about we add a small list like: for jab mashers, use a 2 frame window frametrap, for early crouch tech, use a 3-4 frame window and for late teching use a 5-6 frame window. Not sure about the actual numbers.

47

I do like that idea, I’ll pull my weight and compile a list of each character’s fastest normal so that they can be further grouped by character. I’ll edit this post when I’m done.

Ok here it is: http://paste2.org/p/1155119

Obviously some of these characters are unlikely to mash their normals and instead go for their reversal of choice, but they are all there for the sake of completion. Wrote hakan as no oil because I don’t know if those normals get faster startup when he’s oiled up.

48

Thanks for the info Zidbeans. So characters with fast 3 frame option select tech/cr. shorts are Cammy, Chun-Li, Fei Long, Ken, M. Bison & Sakura. Both Guy and Cody’s cr. shorts have 3 frame startup in AE.

From the frame data it seems Dhalsim’s only 3 frame startup normals are his back standing lk & down forward lk (the slide). His down back cr. short that’s used for teching is supposed to have 5 frames startup.

Will edit that thanks, I’ll add that frame trap, it’s pretty much the same as st.lk > fs.hp though, cr.lp has faster startup over st.lk.

49

Nice work listing and sorting the frame gaps between Akuma’s normals, metallicaband. Sure, the information may be something anyone can tell just by looking at Akuma’s frame data, but nevertheless find it very useful for quick reference and generating new blockstring ideas. I plan on trying (from a short distance) cr.MP/st.LK into fs.HK on big-hitbox characters to see how well the 6-framers do.

But, once again, not all frame traps are equal. For instance, any frame trap involving a

And I thought the purpose of this thread was to help people land them, given that most players already had some fundamental knowledge of frame advantage and putting together their own blockstrings.

50

Nice list of frame traps, metallicaband. Nothing one can’t already glean from looking at Akuma’s frame data, but I nevertheless found the list useful as a quick reference and for brainstorming new things to try.

But since you’re not doing a comprehensive list you should provide a link to Akuma’s frame data for easy access, and encourage players to examine it when building their frame traps/block strings. Case in point: I was intrigued by your listing cr.LP -> cs.MP as a 1-frame frame trap. It sounded pointless, but it urged me to look at the frame data again, and eventually I came up with:

(When next to your opponent)
cr.LK (3-frame gap) close standing MP (6-frame gap) cr.MK xx EX fireball.
Note: I have not actually tried this in a real match yet.

If cs.MP hits as a frame trap, it gives you a +7 advantage on counter-hit, which makes it possible to combo into the rest. You could technically sweep as well, but I thought that to be a little unsafe if blocked, and a 7-frame gap might be a little too much.

If cs.MP is blocked, then you have a second attempt at frame-trapping late techs with the cr.MK.

Beyond that, really, not all frame traps are created equally. Some are more loaded than others, either in terms of damage potential, or in terms of getting it to land successfully. I thought the purpose of this thread is to identify some tips and tricks in landing frame traps, given that most SRKers already have some understanding of how frame advantage and block strings work.

And that’s why I’ve been incredibly adamant about using cr.LP, cs.HP over cr.LP, cr.HP. In my mind it accomplishes pretty much the same thing (you can delay the cs.HP to extend the 2-frame gap to 3 or 4), except cs.HP lets you stand-up, so it looks like you’re trying to throw your opponent.

Sure, cs.HP doesn’t combo into red fireball, but who the **** cares about red fireball when you have so many other damaging options? Btw, ShinAkuma204 and DevilKnight, cr.HP xx red fireball is definitely not safe on block. I got hit out of the red fireball by my opponent (Fei Long’s jabs, Ken’s SRK). Even in training mode I could interrupt the red fireball with tech OS cr.MP about 70 per cent of the time. The other 30 per cent I get hit by the red fireball… but really, there are a lot of people who would mash out EX SRK or Ultra demon at an attempt to catch a fireball at that range.

If you want to do cr.LP/cs.LP -> cr.HP, by all means go ahead, but you might as well cancel the cr.HP to LK Tatsu to take advantage of force stand. That’s something cr.HP can’t do, and it’s the only reason I’d use cr.LP -> cr.HP in a real match - when I have a lead and am looking for that one final combo to win the round against someone who keeps teching early.

One more thing to try for those still reading:

Another thing I’ve started doing recently is (up-close) cr.LP (let go your lever to rise from crouch) cr.MP, sweep. Even though both cr.LP and cr.MP are crouching attacks, I find that by releasing your joystick for that split-second, you can easily change the 2-frame gap to a 3/4-frame gap, and trick your opponent into teching early because of how much the standing animation resembles a grab.

51

This is the problem, it doesn’t accomplish the same thing. They are two separate frame traps for two separate types of situations, one will naturally punish jab spam or early techs, the other is to naturally punish late techs. Nobody is saying to use one over the other except you.

This frame trap works. I’ve used it offline and online. If you don’t want to use it, nobody is telling you to. Use whatever frame traps you feel comfortable with. However for anybody else looking to punish late techs without having to adjust the timing of the frame traps they currently use, then this frame trap does that.

It was kinda the entire point.

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I have seen you taking a very stubborn stance on the cammy vs akuma matchup despite so many telling you its a bad matchup for akuma. So lets agree to disagree.

Let the best idea win.

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Not trying to kiss ass here but Shins pretty solid and Id be willing to take his advice more-so than any other one of these theory fighters on SRK, whose advice needs to be taken with an entire shipment of Morton’s.

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When somebody tries to tell you that 2+2=5 are you being stubborn to tell them it is actually 4?

The problem here isn’t me being “stubborn”. The problem is you missed the entire point of the discussion from the outset and proceeded accordingly.

Next time read the posts you are responding to before you respond to them.

55

Ok, so to sum it up:

1 - What are the best frame traps against c.lp and c.lk cammy mashers?

2 - And what about against Bison’s c.lk ?

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cr strong x2
cr jab>cr strong
cr jab>stand fierce
stand short>cr strong

These frame traps are all fairly tight, so they will beat light spam.

57

That’s true. There are a lot of theory fighters here on SRK who don’t even test their stuff. So I respect that Shin does. And just out of curiosity I went and looked at a few of his videos on Youtube too. Solid Akuma indeed.

Still, I’d love to see cr.LP -> cr.HP xx red fireball in action. Just sayin’.

In all fairness, I wasn’t trying to sell you on the idea that 2+2=5. It’s more like, you said 2+2=4 and I said 2x2=4 is better because it has more complexity. Neither of us is wrong per se, and I even admitted that I would actually use a cr.LP -> cr.HP xx LK tatsu as a shenanigan.

Personally I don’t like the red fireball ender. But that’s cos I don’t know of any setups after a red fireball knockdown (outside of SRK FADC red fireball, that is). Are there any?

58

The red fireball ender is only for huge stun factor. You can use an ex fireball in it’s place for large stun and very good damage which is also a true blockstring after the HP is blocked. In the corner both allow you to DP after hit.

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Played a rog/ken jab masher today, it seemed like each frametrap only worked 25% of the time. Watched the replay back and he was straight up playing track and field with a TE. Anyone else have the same problem?

60

One thing you need to realize is that loose frame traps are intended to beat those who react rather than those who mash. If people are mashing you need to employ different tactics to punish them for their habit. This is where you use traps such as EX Tatsus or SRKs. Tighter frame traps are also decent, but I find most people are smart enough not to mash jab through them. Tatsus and SRKs catch even the more seasoned players (and trust me I eat them regularly lol!).