Again, replays will help if you can play them back. I would suggest that cr.MP getting interupted = it’s being done too late, and cr.MP getting blocked = you’re doing it too early.
You have to work out what it is they are doing that is escaping your throws while blocking your traps. Replays help you do this as does doing a jab followed by nothing just to see what comes out (which at least gives you a clue as to what they like to do), and the last one is old trial and error.
If you leave slight gaps between each hit of your block string, mashing becomes uneconomical. Mashers would like longer blockstuns so doing cr.MP, cr.MP gives them what they want. cr.LP, cr.LK, cr.LP breaks it up with more gaps to hit one of those techs.
Do you ever run your favourite frame traps against yourself using record in training to find out what tech timing they beat compared to how you like to tech? this is something I do myself and it also allows me to find out what timings are most generally effective against them. So if my main trap works against medium timing, I will try a trap against early or late and find what works. Again using the blocked trap = need later trap rule.
If your traps all beat one timing you have a problem.
The thing with Akuma’s frame traps, much like everything Akuma, is that they require timing for the most part. Unlike say Ryu, who has an abundance of natural frame traps (for me natural means just hitting the next sequence of buttons no timing involved to work). With this in mind I looked at the frame data and hit training more in an effort to find some “natural” frame traps. Here’s what I found.
Close standing short>cr mp - A variation of Tokido’s OS pressure, but this is purely for frame trapping. This frame trap is very easy to do and beats jab mashing if done as quickly as possible. On counter hit it’s very easy to confirm into sweep and with practice standing HK.
Crouching jab/standing jab>cr fp>ex fireball/lp shaku/ex shaku - Just found this frame trap that leads to beefy stun and good damage for little investment. The jab is +2/3 frames and the crouch fp is 6 frames allowing this frame trap to beat both jab mashing and bait late tech’s. On a successful counter hit each version of the fireball ender is 250+ damage and 450+ stun. In the corner you can add a dp for over 500 stun and 300+. I was using this in some casual offline matches and I was shocked at how well it does.
for the 2nd frame trap, is that close standing jab instead of crouching? because cr. jab is +2 on block, I was checking the other day about doing frame traps with close standing jab since it’s +3 on block, gotta check someday how well it works on the cast while they’re crouching.
I described this trap in my long post above. The gap is 4 since the jab is +2. It will be beat out if they do early mashing, but not if they are buffering techs into expected blockstuns. The timing is pretty similar to the EX tatsu trap but it’s free. If they do late techs, HP Shaku and EX Shaku aren’t bad on block. HP Shaku was always superior in vanilla. If you do LP Shaku the damage isn’t really worth it, but you get that 200 stun.
The gap is the same if you do far HP after a few more hits in the string that push them out; such as cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.LP or whatever. It’s good because they cannot duck under it with a crouch block and you counter hit their techs so that you can link a sweep after (does 450 stun in vanilla :bgrin:), while it’s a little less risky on block than leaving a cr.HP x Shaku gap. I would recommend it for the Rufus match since it stops him taking to the air while being a trap at the same time.
Could you check out my post and try out the TK EX air fireball? I haven’t had a good chance to explore it in live competition.
Are you serious? Have you actually used this successfully in a real match? Cos I don’t think it’ll work very well. Doing 2 LPs of any sort will only push Akuma away, making it possible for cr.HP to whiff. Not only that, if you’re pushing your opponent away, chances are your opponent will not be mashing a) tech or b) LP/LK out because a) he knows you’re not in range to throw, and b) the whole point of mashing LP/LK is to push you away - which you’re in effect doing by chaining 2 LPs together.
You’d be far better off going with cr.LP -> cr.HP into whatever. Makes more sense. Usually after cr.LP, you have a +2 advantage which you might use to offset the 3-frame start-up required for a throw. Keeping that in mind your opponent will mash and get hit by cr.HP… and then you can go ahead and do whatever.
To make things better, I’ve actually seen cr.LP -> cr.HP in action before - and pulled off by none other than Momochi. He was in Singapore playing a Blanka player, and his wake-up option was to go up close, meaty cr.LP -> cr.HP into combo. Although I’m not sure if you’d consider this an example of a frame trap, since it was a meaty counter-hit that beat all of Blanka’s options except for EX up ball.
Great stuff here, sir. A very, very detailed and informative write-up that gave me a few ideas too.
However, there are a few things I don’t quite agree with, and here’s why:
Two things:
-Whenever you want to do a frame-trap involving cr.LK and/or cr.LP, ONLY THE FINAL cr.LK or cr.LP MATTERS. It doesn’t matter if you’re doing cr.LP, cr.LK, cr.LP, or cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.LP, or cr.LK, cr.LP, cr.LP… as long as it ends with cr.LP, it means you have a +2 advantage at the end of the chain, or 0 if it’s cr.LK at the end.
In other words, there should not be any frame gaps in between your cr.LPs and LKs in your chain. For two good reasons.
First, any gap in these first few LP/LKs might lead you to eating a mashed SRK, where as if you do a chain of 3 LPs/LKs, you’re pushing yourself away and from that distance your opponent will think you’re baiting them to SRK, and so they won’t mask one out.
Second, suppose you intended to use the frame gaps between your series of cr.LP and cr.LK, then it is a very inefficient frametrap. Suppose you successfully hit your opponent with a cr.LP counter-hit. They will give you 50x1.5 (or was it 1.25 counter-hit damage bonus?) and a +1 frame bonus (so +2 becomes +3). What will that accomplish?
For Akuma, most players use either cr.MP to land the frame trap because it gives you +5 on hit, and +8 on counter-hit (making it possible to link into HK or cr.HK), or cs.HP because of the huge damage. On occasion I’ve seen fs.HP used as a frame trap too, to cash in on big damage, but that’s usually quite rare because you can’t do anything after the frame trap.
If you’re going to do something like cr.LP, walk forward, cr.LP, walk forward, etc, sure. By all means go ahead. Use the +2 on block to buy you some time and let you close in on your opponent. But when it comes time to dish out the pain, go with cr.MP… which on block gives you the same +2 frame advantage anyway, allowing you to go in closer. In this scenario, cr.LK serves absolutely no purpose.
This is a very good tactic, one that I employ very often as well. But I’m not sure if this is necessarily a frame trap - I use it every single time I anticipate the opponent sticking something out… usually has nothing to do with me having frame advantage, or not.
As a final note, I’d like to add that spacing is essential to frame traps as well, something I haven’t seen anyone here mention yet (if I’m not wrong).
In short:
-If you’re right next to the opponent, leave a smaller frame gap. If you’re doing cr.LP, cs.HP, don’t need to delay. Reason being your opponent will USUALLY expect you to tick throw right away, and so will start teching early. This is also why Chun Li’s cr.LP, cs.HK walks damn well too.
If your opponent blocks that (and is hence not a masher), start delaying your cs.HP the next time.
-If you’re about half-a-character-width or more, leave a bigger frame gap AND WALK FORWARD MORE before you press that cr.MP. Most players will actually not mash anything out, unless they see you walking in and attempting a throw.
This is something a friend of mine who plays in the arcades advised me on. He told me that none of my cr.MP frame traps were hitting because he knows I’m attempting just that. What’s the counter to someone performing frame traps? Simple. Just block. There’s no need to mash anything unless your opponent is right in your face - and even then, delay the crouch tech timing for good measure.
So that day he gave me the best frame trap advise ever: walk all the way until you’re pretty much right next to the opponent, THEN press cr.MP (in other words, delay the frame trap and go for broke).
That said, I’ve found that there are some exceptions to this advice. When you’re fighting certain characters who can cr.LK, cr.LK into a massive combo (ex lightning legs, for instance), do your frame trap earlier. These characters are likely to start spamming cr.LK at you as you’re walking towards them. Before you get into their cr.LK range, press your cr.MP. Otherwise, for most other characters, the general rule is to live brave, score awesome damage.
Really, most of the time Akuma’s frame traps boil down just to these two things. Everything else, like mixing things up with the demon flip, or fs.HP, just play it by ear.
The forward slash “/” means either/or, not and, which I would think would be obvious unless you think I could end a combo with 3 different specials. ex fireball/lp shaku/ex shaku?
The slash between crouching jab and standing jab mean either/or, not crouch jab into stand jab. He’s advocating cr.LP into cr.HP or stand LP into cr.HP. Two different gaps.
So it was just a meaty link he was using. Is anyone gonna acknowledge that the cr.LP cr.HP Shaku trick was brought up by me first?
Nah dude, you should not be chaining them, they should be links; the gap is supposed to be there. Chains are year one stuff, (year one for console, that is) they were good for a while. Back then the main threat to your offense was a reversal SRK, but people have gotten good at teching these days; SRK is a threat, but it’s not the main one anymore.
Even a lot of the bad players figured out that the risk for cutting off the opponents offense is much lower if they hit jab or crouch tech x2 in gaps to rob you of the frames. The threat of SRK makes you bait or pause, the jab steals the offense. If you get SRKd then you just need to make a note of it and do something different next time.
The gap between the lights is big enough for them to try their own lights without immediately getting rescued by auto block, but not big enough for their light or tech to interupt you. (unless they were frame-tight on a 3 frame normal between cr.LK, cr.LK that you did; but hoping you did that wouldn’t have been a smart play)
Players tech by buffering techs into block stuns. Lights have shorter block stuns than mediums or fierces and there are more of them. So when someone thinks you are gonna do cr.LP, cr.MP and time a tech to be buffered in the back end of the block stun, you can mix them up by doing cr.LP, cr.LK, cr.LP for lower block stuns with extra gaps and it has a decent chance of catching them out (not saying they won’t get lucky).
The gap from linking them makes them mini traps just like the cr.MP ones. When you use cr.LP, st.HP or cr.MP, cr.MP (with their big, long, safe blockstuns) you are wagering your whole offensive wave on that one trap attempt where in place of the space you lost you could have done:
cr.LK, cr.LP, cr.LP (step forward) cr.LP, cr.LP
The frame gap in cr.LP, st.HP is no more safe from reversals nor is it more effective at trapping techs and jabs. It shouldn’t even be considered anything more than a lazy pseudo frame trap. What it really exists as is a strat for a safe, big damage hit confirm that double ups as a trap if you didn’t happen to hit with your jump-in.
If one hits, they link together. Not every trap has to pay-off with a big fat combo, finishing with a link to cr.MK EX fireball for knockdown is usually enough.
Finishing the string with cr.LK or using cr.LK, cr.LK in part of the sequence should be used in anticipation of the string being blocked because it doesn’t link after a hit. When it’s being blocked it leaves different gaps between your lights and your light>mediums than always being at +2. It also reduces pushback.
I said I’m not a personal fan of the 3 light string; but strong Shotos such as Daigo, Air and Alex Valle use these 3 light strings all the time.
It’s relative to tactics used in frame trap/close offense/block string scenarios. Punishes techs and gets you back in on block.
Pardon me. I shall give that a try and see if it works well/better than cr.LP->cs.HP (personally I still feel that the latter is better, because you can always walk forward a little and cs.HP).
Also, I would rather have the cr.LP be a counter-hit than cs.HP be a counter hit. I think this string works better as a meaty cr.LP more than a frame trap.
I’m not going to argue with you on the effectiveness on cr.LP and LKs in frame traps. I don’t think it works. I have offered an explanation why. I’ll let whoever reads this thread test and decide for themselves. If you want to make an even more convincing point, post a video.
Also, about TK EX air fireball, you really want to use it only from cr.MK distance… at which point there aren’t really any moves you can use to frame trap.
If you use it closer, at a distance where you can apply some sort of frame trap, you’ll find that the air fireballs will land on your opponent before Akuma gets to the ground. If your opponent blocks them, Akuma can be punished. You don’t ever want to do them too close to the opponent.
But light attacks only gives 1 extra frame advantage on counter hit which I don’t think is enough to sweep on reaction most of the time (unlike cr. mp which +5 normally but +8 on counter hit and I still have trouble sweeping on reaction with that lol). If you got the cs. HP to counter hit you’ll get a nice stun and damage boost.
I’ll make a list later of what’s been mentioned in this thread to see what you guys think of it before updating the first post.
And that is exactly why I’m opposed to using cr.LP/LK as a frame trap, sir. DevilKnight thinks it’s useful as long as you open the opponent up and (presumably) follow it up with another chain canceled cr.LP into BnB. When you can instead use cr.MP for the frame trap and continue with whatever you like thanks to +8 advantage.
On the meaty cr.LP -> cr.HP, if you had substituted the cr.LP with a cr.MP, this would have pushed the opponent out too far for cr.HP to connect. Which I think is presumably why Momochi used cr.LP -> cr.HP in that one match against Blanka. That said, cr.LP->cr.HP in general, is just really rare and not used much (presumably because it’s not very useful).
How do you guys suss out your opponent while still making the most of each opportunity, are there any techniques you employ or do you forfeit a blockstring here or there just to see what buttons they’re pressing?
There’s no hard and fast rule, really. It comes down to how you read your opponent.
You COULD forfeit a blockstring and just block to watch what your opponent throws out, but I personally do not rely on that regularly. I’d rather carry on with the rest of the blockstring, and hope that my cr.MP/MK gets a counter-hit. My general rule of thumb is, only stop the blockstring if you’re anticipating an SRK.
The two ways I most regularly use to help me determine my opponent’s tech timing are:
Just try the frame trap itself. If it works, great. If it doesn’t, delay the timing the next time. Still doesn’t work? Throw your opponent, show them you’re serious.
Tick throws set-up. Leave a different frame gap each time, and see what they tech and what they don’t tech. Works great because you’re sending them a message that if they don’t start teching properly, they’re going to eat A LOT of vortexes. For instance:
cr.LP -> grab
OR
cr.LP, delay, grab
OR
cr.LK, delay, grab
OR
jump-in, walk forward, grab.
But that’s just me.
I also think it’s important to note what character your opponent is playing. Like I said, when fighting against Chun Li, Cammy, Boxer, Dictator etc, etc, they are much much much more likely to mash cr.LP/LK than, say, Ryu, Gouken, Guile, etc. Because if they manage to land a cr.LK/LP from far, they can combo into something heavy. For those characters, make sure you do your frame trap early.
Finally, don’t forget that the same player might change up their mash timings within the same match. For instance, some players might mash crouch tech when you’re up-close, but the moment you succeed in a frame trap, they will start delaying the crouch tech up-close, or stop teching completely.
Just came back from playing a bunch of matches. Only played Japanese guys who were better than me (Bs and As). I won some, but I lost a lot. Admittedly I’m not a very good Akuma yet, so take what I say with a huge dose of salt. But here’s what I found about a couple of stuff I said I’d test out.
The cr.LP -> cr.HP thing does sound like it makes a lot of sense.
But ultimately cr.LP -> cs.HP seems to be a lot better, if only for one reason: on the off chance that your opponent does something stupid and doesn’t block your cr.LP (which happens more often than you’d think), cs.HP will allow you to combo into BnB, whereas cr.HP will not UNLESS it’s a counter-hit.
If you do cs.LP -> cr.HP, sure, it would combo on hit. But it’s a very tight link.
So, to recap, let me just list down the pros and cons of each.
cr.LP (+2 on block, +5 on hit) -> cr.HP (6f startup) -> whatever
Works as a 4f frame trap on block
Doesn’t combo on hit, unless it’s a counter-hit.
cs.LP (+3 on block, +6 on hit) -> cr.HP (6f startup) -> whatever
Works as a 3f frame trap on block
Combos on cs.LP hit, but timing is very strict (1F link), unless on counter-hit (2F link)
cr.LP (+2 on block, +5 on hit) -> cs.HP (4f startup) -> whatever
Works as a 2f frame trap on block
Combos on cr.LP hit (2F link)
If you need a bigger frame trap, you can always walk forward for one or two or three frames before pressing cs.HP, which is good for baiting.
… Which is a really long-winded way of saying West was right on the money.
No. Sorry, but no.
Don’t EVER do TK air fireball at close range (about cr.LK distance).
I was doing this on a pretty decent Ibuki (aki0 aki0, who has a C Ibuki and an A Sagat), and even though the air fireballs HIT Ibuki, my Akuma could not recover in time to block (I was holding downback because I knew it wouldn’t combo), and I got punished with another BnB.
Would provide you with video evidence of this, but then I’d have to dig through my replays (I played a lot with this one guy in ranked match). So just do and test it in training mode and you’ll see what I mean.
For certain frame traps, like cr.MP -> cr.MP, I can’t stress enough how much spacing and what character you’re fighting against/match-up knowledge factor into the way you execute the trap (from what position/how much to delay).
In other words, the same player will have different tech timings depending on what character he’s playing - and so you will have to vary the timing of your frame trap accordingly.
This obviously doesn’t apply to cr.LP -> cs.HP, which is universal because you’re right in your opponent’s face, but if you’re doing frame traps from a short distance, like cr.MP -> cr.MP keep in mind:
A) The reach of your opponent’s various pokes
B) The speed of those pokes (start-up frames)
C) Abare AKA the ability to combo into heavy damage from said poke.
To exemplify: I played aki0 aki0’s Ibuki and Sagat. And I found that whereas his Ibuki would start teching the moment I enter into her cr.LK range, for Sagat he doesn’t do that. So for Ibuki if I don’t tech early enough, I get hit by cr.LK, but for Sagat, this doesn’t happen.
Hence I would presume that when fighting Ken, I probably don’t want to delay my frame trap at all, or by 1 frame. Whereas for Abel I would probably delay by 2 or 3 frames. Oh, just to be clear, by “delay” I really mean “walk forward after the first cr.MP”.
Most good players will be blocking the first jab of a pressure string. If they are getting hit by the first jab often then they probably will eat anything you choose to do, so choice of frame trap isn’t relevant.
The point of the cr jab>cr fp frame trap is that it punishes late tech without having to use bar or frame perfect timing. It is more useful on solid opponents who have blocking as a priority on defense. Cr jab>st hp won’t punish late tech, the window between normals is too tight, the opponent would just end up blocking.
Like I said, if you want a bigger frame gap, you can always delay the button press, or walk forward and then press cs.HP.
Example:
[media=youtube]snD0t2Xz73k[/media]
Look at 01:08. Watch as Tokido does a st.LK (DELAY) cr.MP frame trap THAT WORKED. The standing there doing nothing signifies the end of a block string and cues your opponent to start teching. You don’t get that with cr.LP -> cr.HP.
There is nothing you can’t do with cr.LP -> cs.HP that you can with cr.HP.
I would think for most people cr.LP -> cs.HP is better given that it also doubles as a hit-confirm combo. Obviously if you do a jump-in, you’re not going to be able to do cr.LP -> cr.HP, are you?
I remember when I was working on it in training before I first posted in this thread that I tried on hit and block. I got jabs to combo on hit and Akumas jabs overlapped theirs (auto block) when it was blocked. Perhaps there’s some kinda misleading property with it, but then I run my setups in vanilla first and fore-most, since that’s my game. Maybe I didn’t test in Super.
I’m too tired to write up a response to some of the things said tonight, but quickly while I’m here:
’ the fuck is wrong with your attitude?
Suave way to have said: “I tried it out in some matches like you were hoping and it doesn’t work out” don’t you think?
I haven’t done shit to deserve any abuse from you so drop the needless stings. Not interested in personal arguements, only that this thread is on track on discussion of frame trap strats. You’ll notice when I originally replied to clarify the use of the tactics you brought into question, I went into detail and it’s information everyone can use. I’m sorry if you got angry in feeling that I dissed your favourite trap.
It’s what’s usually done with cr.MP as discussed on the front page. You can do your own delays or use ‘natural’ traps with gaps a certain size.
Only cr.HP combos into Shaku on counter hit. If st HP is your trap for catching the tech, you can’t hit confirm a blank st HP so you basicly have to see cr.LP blocked and then do st HP into fireball whether the trap worked or not.
You can hit confirm a jump-in with jump-in and then jab. You can hit confirm jump-ins with plain jump-in to fierce but it’s hard to go tatsu, SRK or Shoryu based on what happened and the uncancelled fierce is unsafe. The jab to stand fierce hit confirm is there to give extra time to react to whether they blocked, got hit standing or hit crouching, and it does double as a frame trap as I said before.
In regard to cr.LP to st HP: cr.LP to cr.MP is the same gap and it’s more flexible as a focused frame trap. Don’t let this stop you using it as your facourite all-purpose trapping tool, this is just for discussion sake.
Back to cr.LP to cr.HP. You can confirm the jump-in, jab situation so there is no need to crouch fierce when the jump-in hits and lose a link. You can react to the block and use this trap if you so desire. It’s advised in situations where a block is likely such as safe jumps or cross-ups anyway.
Again, I’ll write in more detail to clear some things another time.
Me giving you shit? Hey listen you need to freaking chill, alright? You’re taking this far more personally than warranted, okay? All I’m doing is simply posting what I found. If it’s different from what you found, then maybe we should try and freaking figure out what the hell was wrong instead of taking it so personally. What the hell is wrong with you?
Look if I thought I was so effing great I wouldn’t have admitted that I lost a bunch and told people to take what I post with a pinch of salt, alright?
I stand by my position - TK EX air fireball is disadvantageous (if your opponent blocks it they recover faster and can jab you while you block) and occasionally even unsafe/punishable at close range. It should only be used at around cr.MK distance.
This is something I’ve personally encountered a lot of in SF4 vanilla. But I actually took your advice in consideration, out of respect, and actually bothered to try it out, only to get punished and lost a round for that.
And for that I get attitude. Thanks a lot, asshole.
You can disagree if you want to, but don’t think for a moment you have a right to get personal about it, okay? It’s just something that has never, ever worked for me. It’s information out there that anyone can use too.
For anyone who’s actually looking for advice on frame traps, what DevilJin said about cr.MP being the frame trap of choice is true. You can replace all st.HP (close) with cr.MP. cr.MP has the benefit of combing into cr.HK.
However, if you’re using cr.LP -> cs.HP is not only a frame trap that doubles as a hit-confirmable combo, and can also lead to huge damage and an untechable knockdown, regardless of it hits or is blocked.
It’s good to switch between cr.LP -> cr.MP and cr.LP -> st.HP (close).