It’s really quite simple. If they’re not next to you when you’re waking up, their options are severly limited. If they’re in your face when you’re waking up, their options are not as limited, but still limited none the less. If you actually write your options down on paper, you will realize that as long as you are using a good character (read: one with good wakeups), you shouldn’t have any problems (unless you’re playing a GDLK Dudley).
Bottom line, the initiator ALWAYS has to guess. There is such a thing as action and REACTION.
Just to give you an example of how the initiator can get fucked in the “long run” because he guessed wrong. I’ve played good Makotos before which got in, landed a Karakusa, and then landed a few short combos because I was holding up with Dudley the whole time. What happened next? They went for another Karakusa because they thought the 25% or so damage had “tamed” me. Since I was holding up the whole time, her grab whiffs, I land on her with a j. fierce, s. rh xx EX MGB, into whatever for around 40%+ damage depending on whether you were near the corner or not.
Initiating always carries risks. You still have to guess. The only time initiating doesn’t seem risky is when you’re playing a garbage character or a garbage person who doesn’t know his options.
The guessing game is equal on both sides, however the person who was knocked down doesn’t have the option of altering their spacing, unlike the person who is standing…
Since “the Initiator” (by definition) initiates, he can make the safest option and therefore keep momentum and not take damage.
Example: Akuma scores a cr. Rh in the corner on Ryu. Ryu is on the ground. Akuma jumps and throws a jab air fireball then lands. It is falling on ryu as he gets up.
Ryu can:
1)Parry - Which if done Akuma now has a high/low mixup game for free. You can land an almost free st. fierce or cr. mk xx lk hurricane -> dragon punch
2)Block - Which gives Akuma the option to continue a pressure string (still good for Akuma since he controls the pace of the match)
3)Take the damage from fireball - and probably get comboed in the process.
All of these options that Ryu can do getting up do not effect negatively on Akuma. By initiating you keep + Advantage.
If you are always fucking up when you have initiative then you need to learn some new tricks. Everything period always carries a risk. Minimizing risks is top tier.
You picked one of the only characters (if not THE only) that has a pretty safe wake up option, and used him as your counter example? That seems sorta weird. Anyway, covering your tracks with an air fireball isn’t even that great. There’s been plenty of times where I did one only to eat an immediate jab SRK from Ken, or an EX Uppercut from Dudley after the parry. It’s pretty obvious what Akuma is going to do after he sets up that air fireball (attack), so you can just punish after the parry. The reason people believe a lot of shit to be safe is because of the opponent’s own indulgences when it comes to punishing. For example, I play a really good Dudley who whenever you try to cross him up with Ken, won’t just block (like a LOT of people do), but instead will parry, then s. rh xx EX Uppercut which does soooo much fucking damage. That’s an example of punishing fully (or close to it). Same thing with people being lenient against Akuma. If you actually went for the damage instead of accepting defeat, you’d realize jumpin air fireball isn’t that safe. Same thing goes against his Demon flip setups. Once you block the divekick, just immediately EX Uppercut to put an end to whatever followup he had planned. When I see people blocking a million dive kicks in a row, it sorta makes me sad because they’re either ignorant (thinking they’re in some sort of inescapable, never ending block stun) or scared (they’re afraid of sneaking that uppercut in there to break Akuma’s flow). And one could say that these “random uppercuts” aren’t safe, but certain things are so engrained in Akuma players’ minds (attack, attack, attack!) that it’s really quite obvious when it’s safe to throw them out. This is why I believe the initiator always carries the burden of risk. Reacting to something is a lot easier (and safer) in a slower game like 3S.
Rofl. Just because you see people do things a certain way a lot does not mean they are a constant. Random uppercuts are not safe, and if they happen to work against people you play, that just speaks poorly on the people that you play. How can you base an arguement on the fact that a player will always do something the exact same way (attack after an air fireball)? If good players telegraphed their attack patterns so ridiculously, then yes, random ass uppercuts would be safe, but unfortunately for you, thats not the case.
pherai, Akuma is like the most offensive character in 3S…don’t tell me you don’t followup your air fireballs or Demon flips…EVERYONE DOES!! And I never said I do “random” EX Uppercuts all the time, but when I play a good Akuma, and I see him going on the offensive, I can make some very educated guesses (worst case scenario) or I can just react (most of the time). Akuma may be “unpredictable” at times, but the fucker is not hard to see coming…
Oh lord. You are hopeless. Have you ever played a good Yun? Safe wake-up option is cross up Dive Kick (or Dive Kick mixup) or Active GJ to gain instant momentum.
Friggin Aye. Ken can walk up meaty/cr. lk mixup because if you guess wrong against Ken you eat a super and then you are screwed.
Chun-Li has killer Kara-Throw wake-up game options
Dudley can throw the rose much like Akuma’s air fireball.
The initiator always has the advantage. I don’t know anyone that can react to a normal on wakeup. Your opponent doesn’t know if it is going to be High or Low unless you telegraph it.
Obviously they can “guess” but guesses are at the very best 25% accurate considering most wakeup options include - High Attack, Low Attack, Throw, or Block. It isn’t the greatest strategy to guess everytime on wakeup as 75% of the time it isn’t worth your while and 66% of the time you’ll probably eat damage. This is why it has been stated millions of times the best thing to do when you are getting up is BLOCK. If your opponent is guessing everytime and it’s working then YOUR GAME is the problem and you should fix it.
Even if you attack low every time all you need to do is vary the timing a split second and the move will hit.
You need to play knew people and learn new tricks. If you know what all your opponents are going to do then you shouldn’t lose. Ever.
No, the initiator doesn’t always have the advantage. And tons of people can react to normals on wakeup. You consider all of these options “safe” wake ups? Wow… The only overhead that is even remotely difficult to see coming is Dudley’s.
Anyway…
Yun…crossup divekick is easy to see coming and punish by parrying. Genei is bullshit, so no need to mention it as a wake up cause it’s not. It beats everything, so you can say it’s an anti-air as well…maybe make it a meaty, or a punisher, or whatever else you want it to be…it’s EVERYTHING!
Dudley…is Dudley. I already mentioned he’s a wakeup beast, but if you guess parry, it makes life MUCH easier. Why? Because Dudley looks for the overhead, or the low short. It’s much harder for him to cancel to Corkscrew when the mind is looking for hit confirmation. In the case of the overhead, he’s fucked if you parry high, since it’s not cancellable. As for the low short, he’s looking for the second low short to super, so he most likely won’t cancel to super. The only other hit confirmable normal he has (that is widely used) is t+forward which is not used on wakeup since it’s blockable high and low, hence removing any guessing game. Parry vs Dudley, don’t block. He’s gonna get you either way, you may as well have a 50% chance to fuck him up.
Chun…lol…her wakeup isn’t scary at all. If you’re using Akuma, just wait a split second, then do Hurricane. Will beat her whiffed throw. Or you can let her jiggle, and wakeup with low short xx super. Characters like Chun don’t block low on wakeup. Punish her for it…
Bottom line: the initiator doesn’t always have the advantage.
I didn’t say anything about over heads. High attacks are more than just overheads. If you’re opponent blocks on wakeup then there is no risk in initiating.
So if they parry low a st. rh/mk will hit. I don’t know anyone that can parry a st. mk on reaction if I am right next to them without guessing.
And yes I consider the rest of them safe, because if you have the gaul to constantly try to parry all the stuff that “could” come at you on wakeup by any of these characters then you will be losing more than you will be winning.
@The bolded part: This is why you just don’t get it.
Yun’s GJ is used as a wakeup. Yun scores a knock down then dashes forward and activates. Why? Because it’s hard as fuck to get out of and is almost guaranteed damage.
How do you parry the rose and a cr. lk at the same time? If Dudley looks for the overhead or the low short and you guess wrong you get fucked up. On top of that all characters can throw. You can’t parry throws and if you get thrown back into the corner then the whole situation resets. This is advantageous.
Characters like Chun-Li do whatever they need to win. That includes doing nothing as a mixup game on wake up. Not to mention that getting Kara Thrown because you don’t want to get supered is a very viable tactic. If you guess wrong vs. Chun-Li then you lose boatloads of health. Getting tick thrown 3 times in a row sucks too.
You aren’t even weighing out all the wakeup options that characters have. Winning means you do anything you need to do to win. You cannot just exclude options because you feel like it.
The initiator always starts with the advantage. If you squander it that’s on you. Nothing in 3S is 100% safe, I’m not arguing that. The initiator has the means and time to take the safest/best option. Giving them the advantage.
Guess parrying is just as effective as guess wake ups. You can go high or low to your heart’s content, but guess what? If you’re playing a character like Dudley that can do 40% with one EX, you’re both at 50%. He has a 50% of parrying your high or low, and you have a 50% of guessing right. The only time it’s stupid to take risks like this is when your character is shit and can’t punish. But all of what I’m saying is really common sense. Think about it…
If you’re as strong as your opponent, you go toe to toe.
If you’re weaker, you runaway and don’t take risks.
If you’re stronger, than you initiate and keep pressing him until he breaks.
These aren’t mind blowing concepts. If you’ve never played someone that takes risks and fucks you up for shit you thought was safe against tamed and trained opponents, that’s not my problem. Maybe you need a few more “scrubs” in your area that don’t just block at the “correct” times and play by the book.
Person on offense always has the advantage. So the initiator would always have the advantage. I find no argument that could possibly say the one on defense has an advantage on wake up. Period.
That’s only cause we live in a world that rewards aggressive behavior. Rush that shit down! Fuck him up! Blah blah blah… Nobody respects a good defense. They find it “boring”. That’s why Daigo’s win over JWong will be remembered forever, while other matches that display the same excellence at the other end of the spectrum are already forgotten. So when you say that the initiator always has the advantage, I’m not surprised. You’ve just been trained well.
DanD:
Who said I was talking about stamina? Lol… When I say stronger or weaker I am including all aspects of a character. Chun > Sean. Sean would need to play extremely defensive to stand a chance. Yun > Chun. Yun can rush her down hard and Chun has to play very carefully. I also think Akuma > Chun for instance. He has a MUCH stronger rushdown, so he can be on her like white on rice. That’s what I meant…not mere health.
You are still excluding wakeup options and basing your argument on that.
Parrying on wakeup is a viable option, but it isn’t a safe one. Sure you may get great damage off if you get the parry, but more often then not you’ll be taking damage.
Getting thrown over and over happens alot. If you are getting thrown you don’t have the advantage. You are losing both health, spacing, and initiative.
If you have to guess on wakeup then you do not have the advantage. The best wakeup option is to block. Hands down. If you block you don’t lose any health and are in a better position to gain initiative.
And Akuma get’s raped by Chun. Chun-Li has a better ground game and when she lands that super its GGPO. The only thing Akuma has on Chun is mobility/demon flip mixups (IMO). But I don’t get to play alot of good Chun-Li’s so someone with more experience may be able to give more info on the subject.