AE ver. 2012 Viper changes

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
61

ultra damage nerf means sjc combos off of normals are gonna be pretty shit now unless you learn to hit confirm off of one less short or just hit confirm off of cl.st.mp :confused:

and why the fuck does our character get nerfs when she still loses a majority of the matchups

of coarse fuudo thinks fei long loses to viper. he thought wakeup grab when she has meter and ultra is a good idea.

but yea you guys are right landing one more hit isnt a big deal because the idiots crying about her still dont know how to block burning kicks lmao

62

The damage nerfs are in reality not as big as some other characters have gotten in the past. Granted, damage nerfs can be iffy when you look at it in words, but itā€™ll be something else we finally play it. I have lost tons of matches due to the 50/50 chances of landing U1 after a HP TK or burning kick that was at a good height. Iā€™ll take a damage nerf for a more consistent juggle into U1 any day. It does not change how viper plays, but it may actually increase the chances you will do better (not more) damage. Itā€™s a matter of whether you want a 50/50 chance of landing U1 or you can actually rely on U1 connecting when you do a good punish, because it is never a sure thing as things are currently. EX seismo nerf isnā€™t all that bad if you look at it, what makes EX seismo good is the startup and invincibility, both untouched. Regular seismo untouched, so rapid seismo and meterless FADC are left unchanged, with exception being juggle into U1(in regards to damage nerf). It could have been worse, but viperā€™s game has always been about playing on momentum (risk/reward) and it doesnā€™t not change. A missed punish, opportunity or mistake will still make you lose faster than the damage nerfs will.

63

her damage was the only thing that made playing match ups where everything they do pretty much beats your options bearable

64

I have a question about the EX TK recovery frames. My combo is to do a normal seismo followed by a burning kick (LP seismo if hits from far, MP seismo if from close), but the window is extremely small. Since it was already hard to connect, does this mean the 2 frames make this combo impossible?

i.e., EX TK, Seismo, Burning Kick

65

I just use Viper as a late secondary, and I might be talking out of my ass but I think the nerfs are neglible, I mean they couldā€™ve done so much more nerfs to herā€¦ I main honda and I have kinda survived the AE nerf fest so all whiners please think about that for a moment.

66

I donā€™t think thatā€™s the case, if anything itā€™s makes you slightly more vulnerable if blocked. We wonā€™t know until we try though, but thatā€™s a good question though.

edit: I wouldnā€™t think itā€™s impossible since itā€™s one of only few combos into ultra 2. It would be dumb to remove that after buffing ultra 2 damage.

67

Iā€™m amazed at the amount of people that donā€™t main this character and come here to tell us we should be happy about these nerfs. LOL?

If you donā€™t play the character please voice your opinion on the balance thread etc,thanks.

On the nerfs:

  • U2 is lol, whatever.

  • Ultra dmg reduction was expected. I donā€™t really care. Fixing the U1 hitbox is great news. Thatā€™s not even a buff, it was ridiculous to have to pull out a scientific calculator to determine when you had to activate ultra according to char, spacing, day of the week etc.

Iā€™m not expecting mid air bk ultra to work now, really, that would bring MORE haters. Probably itā€™s just easier to juggle mid screen after FP TK or raw seismo like when you are in the corner.

  • mp tk nerf is unnecessary but I donā€™t care. The move is good, there other chars that have good moves,we just got hit by the nerf bat. Whatever.

  • ex tk I donā€™t fully understand. Can we OS something with that now? Is it easier to punsih teleports or bacdashes?Not gonna comment on this one

  • Ex seismo nerf I donā€™t like. Somebody needs to calculate dmg differences in combos like FFF SJC FADC U1 or FFF mp TK U1 so we can get a better idea of the impact. But I donā€™t like the idea of this nerf speciallyā€¦

  • Because the other chars are getting damage buffs. Someone called this ā€œdouble nerfā€. I agree. Honda is going to be worse I think,Zangief too. So hard matchups become harder, Bison too, he puts in the corner and can pressure better now if he has the meter.

So we deal less damage and we take more damage. The gameplan doesnā€™t change but weā€™ll have to work (even?) more for our wins. Viper stays in top 10 in 2012? Who knows,.

68

I donā€™t have to play Viper to know that losing 10 dmg on MP TK isnā€™t a ā€œnerf batā€.

69

If you are freaking out about these nerfs you probably had a hard time winning before and are just salty. Any Viper with some decent game knowledge can see these changes make no real change to her actual play. She has all the same capabilities and tools she had before, your biggest worry should be what changes other characters get cause she got treated so gently. I agree with the sentiment that she didnā€™t need nerfing, as she her place on the tier chart has only raised via the nerfs and sometimes over nerfs of her opponents. However all in all Viper is still Viper, you are still gonna lose and win against the same people you did before assuming their character didnā€™t change a ton.

70

I dunno how he managed to raise an already-raised point. Iā€™ve pretty much been the most vocal about the changes, and I made it crystal-clear from my very first post [including replies that followed] that my complaints had less to do with what was taken from her, and MORE to do with all her bad match-ups getting beefed. Yā€™all just see a nigga whining, though, huh. Nevermind the logic behind it.

5.6 Earthquake on the East Coast? What a coincidence~ We all know why this happened. Somebody isnā€™t happy.

I guess I canā€™t really blame Capcom for listening to the loudest voices. Closed mouths donā€™t get fed.

71

HAV:

Iā€™m worried about Yang nerfs. :frowning: I use Yang on the side and I know that while heā€™s good heā€™s not as ridiculous as people make him out to be.

Honestly, the reduced damage off of Ultra 1 and EX Seismo isnā€™t going to be that big of a deal with FFF EX Seismo, SJC FADC Ultra 1. Yes, thereā€™s going to be more occassions where normally the opponent would have died in AE but we dealt with that from Vanilla to Super as there were global damage nerfs in Super.

The most important thing here is that sheā€™s still going to play exactly the same as before, which I hope was the primary concern of most people when the rebalance was announced. I donā€™t know why people were expecting a buff to the character when she received nothing from Super to AE and is now considered OP.

All these people bitching about matchs being harder need to take a look at what those characters received.

Blanka:
ā€¢ Each Rolling Attack (Beast Roll) gets an extra 10 in damage, so Light Punch 110, Medium Punch 120, Hard Punch 130, EX 120.
ā€¢ For Hard Punch and EX Ball, if it hits on the second frame (same frame where Focus Attack cancel is possible), it causes a knock down. Will be easier to follow-up EX Ball with additional hits if Focus Attack Dash Cancelled.
ā€¢ Charged Rock Crusher gives Blanka a +5 frame advantage, so he can do Rock Crusher, c.MK, Hard Punch Rolling Attack as a combo.
None of these buffs changes the Viper/Blanka match up at all. Itā€™s still going to be a bad match up because of the same tool sets Blanka has over Viper.

Gief:
ā€¢ Light Punch Spinning Pile Driver does 150 stun. Up from 100 in Arcade Edition.
ā€¢ EX Green Hand (Banishing Flat) damage 90+50 for a total of 140. Stun 100+50 for a total of 150. Damage in Arcade Edition was 130 and stun was 100.
ā€¢ Adjusted the hitbox on Crouching Light Punch, so that it hits more easily off a jump-in against characters it formerly didnā€™t.
ā€¢ Hurtbox for Crouching Hard Kick reduced in height, making it easier to pass under certain attacks.
In general it means you can guess wrong 1 less time because youā€™re going to get stunned first but if the match up is already at that point itā€™s looking grim for you anyways. It makes a slight difference but not enough to make the match up significantly worse. The match up strategy still hasnā€™t changed.

Rog:
ā€¢ Headbutt damage fixed back to Super, Medium Punch 120, Hard Punch 140 and EX 150.
ā€¢ Ultra 2 damage is 399, up from 300 in Arcade Edition.
ā€¢ Hit properties on Dash Overhead changed so that it can combo into Crouching Medium Punch on all characters.
ā€¢ Close Standing Hard Punch hitbox extended downwards so that it hits crouching characters that it used to whiff on.
Absolutely nothing has changed in this match up because Rog could combo c.Strong after Dash Overhead anyways and s.Fierce hit her crouching anyways. Damage buff on headbutt makes it the same as super. Overall, heā€™s still nerfed from Super making the match up still the same.

Bison:
ā€¢ Scissor Kick stun changed to 100/50 (150 total) on all strengths. Previously the Light and Medium Scissor Kicks did 100 stun.
ā€¢ First hit causes 1 frame of extra hitstun, so if you Focus Attack Dash Cancel the first hit you can have +5 advantage at best.
You might get stunned faster then before but the pushback of scissors still exist and the match up dynamic itself doesnā€™t change. Iā€™m pretty sure Bison players are extremely unhappy that this is the only buffs they got when they wanted way more.

Honda:
LP Headbutt gets itā€™s invincibility back so itā€™s acts as his anti-air.

Okay, this one gets worse because it means he doesnā€™t have to burn meter for a reliable anti-air, which means he has meter for other things including his super. This is probably back to how it was in Super.

72

^^^^^^

so fucking true

73

As a Honda user I would add that besides regaining the anti air LP headbutt he will still have the anti lows headbutt with MP, but I wouldnā€™t go as far as saying that itā€™s going to be as it was in super because of Hondaā€™s damage nerfs(including anti air LP headbutt that will do 100 damage in 2012). It will still be a bad matchup.

74

its always the akuma and seth players crying about viperā€™s dmg, ya know we dont like getting knocked down by akuma either, you might wanna practice the match.

HAV - also, i never stated that I donā€™t really think yang is outta control, him being better than viper, IMO, doesnā€™t mean he really needs nerfs, I think heā€™s a strong character, but not outta control like ppl make him out to be. (fyi, iā€™m speaking from the persepctive of viper, adon, sakura and akuma)

killey, by what you wrote, rog, bison honda and gief are all harder, yet you put nothing changedā€¦I donā€™t get it.

Mirage - a lot of matches will come down to the wire, but if you perfect your setups for bks and crossups, you can easily win a lot of matches quickly, thatā€™s the main thing ppl dont like about viper.

75

To be honest, I missed your post, sorry about that.

76

To me this sounds like he can kill her a bit faster.

Why were these changes made to Viper anyway?

77

I thought they wouldnā€™t change anything to the char. Still, as they modified everyone, this slight dmg reduction was the only safe way from Capcom.
It amounts to nothing really. Same gameplan, same old char, perfect with me.

(And those salty non-vip players taunting and trolling in this thread are ridiculous. I see very little complaint about those changes.)

78

Personally, the buffs that the other characters got donā€™t change the match up in any way. I would say the match up got harder if they got some new tool that counters a strategy that Viper uses. The buffs that all of them got donā€™t do that besides Honda regaining AA LP Headbutt.

Rog could already do that stuff against Viper in Vanilla and Super. The match up doesnā€™t change. Additional damage on headbutt is negligible since we dealt with that in Super and worse in Vanilla.

Bison is not going to get harder because heā€™s +5 after FADCing the first hit of Scissor Kick when it connects. It already connected the situation is not going to change. Extra stun on Scissor Kicks is pretty negligible, imo. The match up still plays out the same way.

Gief getting more stun on his Jab SPD and EX GH isnā€™t even as bad as to what we put up with in Vanilla. At least EX GH still doesnā€™t knock down and his Lariats have been nerfed.

Honda is the only one where I would consider the match up getting a bit harder since we canā€™t jump in on him as much but we conditioned ourselves on the match up in Vanilla and Super. Heā€™s still nerfed overall and Iā€™m not expecting give aways from Capcom to make these matches any easier.

79

I donā€™t think Viper deserve those nerfs really. I mean her damage output and everything are fine they way they were, and sheā€™s the most technical character in the game so changing her wasnā€™t the best way of going at it.

80

Why is everyone talking about easier ways to juggle ultra? I thought it was pretty clear they meant more consistent juggles at max range, that is to say, at the very furthest edge of the hitbox. MANY characters would fall out with certain distances, hell I even managed to get yun to fall out on the 3rd flame kick and get hit by the 4th lol. The hitbox was kind of weird like that.

Because people like to complain rather than learn a matchup. Laugh knows the matchup and he DESTROYED Latif at either NCR 9 or the tournament that happened the same weekend (forgot the name). ReveLAtions, thatā€™s it.

Im mostly perplexed by the +2 recovery frames on EX TK, it already took 27 frames to start, had no invinciblity, could be Ultrad on reaction, and punished on block. I had begun to utilize it as a risky long distance AA and now that itā€™s even more punishable, Iā€™m wary of continuing to experiment with it. The 2 frames taken off the startup is pretty wtf too, basically a drop in the bucket compared to the 25 frames leftā€¦