In SF4, they can change the chip without messing the base damage. I forgot what character they did it to but I remember that it was done.
EX Seismo nerf: If you want to rationalize I guess this was their thought process: EX Seismo = faster where you can combo into it, wider area of effect, same damage as regular seismo. Hmm maybe with it being faster and the area of LP and MP Seismo, we should lessen the damage.
No stun damage reductions and leaving her more or less the same is nice.
Then el oh el @ all of Rose’s EX specials being the same damage as her meterless ones.
Spark doesn’t count, that’s actually 2 projectiles. Seriously, the nerfs would only feel semi-necessary if they weren’t buffing anyone else. Let alone her bad match-ups. My opinion, though.
I’m not gonna derail this thread on some dumb shit, but Yang isn’t “riskless” at all. He’s a low life character with only decent mid range game (people overstate his “footsies” so much… what the hell does he have at mid range, that makes him better than even Viper?), and a mix-up game that is faaaaaar from “riskless”.
In terms of just overall effectiveness, Yang and Viper are pretty even. If you drop the twin hype, where people assign qualities to Yang, that really only exist in Yun, Yang is a Top 5 character. Not Top 2… you can argue he’s top 3, but you can argue the same thing for Viper. I don’t think either argument is particularly strong. I think in AE, you have Yun/Fei… then you have Yang/Ken/Viper/Sagat, then Mak/Gief/Bison/Abel/Akuma.
I’m gonna just stop there. No need to derail further… all I’m saying is that you guys should be crying tears of joy now, because your character didn’t see a single nerf of any significance.
And come on… you really think 10 damage on TK, and again… >20 damage on Ultra (in any real-world application) is going to make any match-up harder?
Why leave it the same from Vanilla to AE then? If it was fine then, why change it now? I can even understand the MP TK nerf.
From Vanilla to Super: "MP TK is too strong. Nerf the frame advantage"
Super to AE: "Too weak. Give back the frame advantage"
AE to v.2012: “Still too strong. Already tried adjusting the frame advantage, let’s adjust the damage instead”
But why would it take 3 years for them to adjust the damage on EX Seismo? Either this change driven more by community feedback, or they want to see U2 get used more often. Combos into U1 are nerfed x2 (EX Seismo nerf + U1 nerf), while combos into U2 are buffed (U2 damage buff offsets the EX Seismo nerf). Anyone care to do a proper damage calculation?
I dont want to argue either, my main thing with yang over the rest of the strong characters is the dive kick/crossup situation its a very strong mixup in this game, you have amazing OS, better than average, and you have far above average meter gain. Let’s not forget a command throw. I don’t think yang is as good as fei and yun by any means, but he’s clearly better than the rest of teh top characters. viper/sagat/ken belong in group with the others. Those 3 are interchangeable with the others because they all have at least 2 or so moderately hard counter picks.
Yeah, the dmg nerfs will be easly 70 dmg per game, that makes a huge differnce when you fight bison, rog, honda and gief and sagat as viper. its like guile with the flash kick dmg changes. you really notice them in close matches. I will not thank capcom for making silly changes even if they arent that bad, its not just my character, this game is flooded with dumb changes and i’m not just pretend like they arent stupid.
my point being, i like changes that make sense, gief buffs are a really good example of capcom actually getting it right, he can now better cope with his bad matches due to hitbox changes or w/e. viper just does less dmg…wooo hooo, now some matches dont change at all cause it was massive overkill, some stay the same, and some will be very hard for her, all it does is randomly change the outcome of matches, its not something that a player can seize the effectiveness of.
I think 70 dmg per game is nothing. That’s one Low Strong. And you’re acting like, as it is now, all Viper players just do the exact amount of damage needed to kill someone in every round. When you kill someone, there is an amount of damage that is done, over that which is needed to kill. On average, just guessing, that amount has to be at least around 40 points, if you think about all the Ultra overkills, or all the times you kill with just EX Seismo, before the follow-up… or when you choose to punish with Low Strong xx MP TK, since that’s all you need to kill, when you could do FFF xx MP TK for much more meterless damage…
Looking at it as some static number that you have to do, more than what you needed to do before, is really overstating the change. You won’t have to do much more than what you’re doing now, if anything at all, in most cases.
Raw EX Sesimo U1 = ~600 damage
Now = 540 damage
EX Seismo MP TK U1 = 120 + 120 + 480*.9 = ~672
Now = 100 +110 + 440*.9 = ~604
Wow one more burn kick mixup, seismo/ex seismo or TK
yeah thats exactly what i was saying, its not productive changes, just randomly effects the outcome of matches, its stupid. why even make such dumb nerfs especially since you’re reverting others back to how they were in super when viper had that dmg in super already…
You’re forgetting that for every EX Seismo and MP TK she lands in a match she’ll also have to land another jab, or basically another punish if we’re talking practically. People talk like she only uses it once per round lol.
And I wish Viper actually did that much damage lol. UCs increment the scaling factor by two.
Sometimes, I feel like I’m the only one who constantly wins/loses by a sliver of health. Last game, final round, last hit. One st.Short, if that.
Coincidentally, I’m the one making the biggest deal of the change. Fuck it. I’ll just go nuts in 2012. If I’m gonna win or lose by 70 dmg, I might as well win or lose by 236 [minus the nerf on Strong TK].
It’s not the UC damage combo nerf that’s the problem. I’d rather have her UC1 nerfed even more and have EX Seismo the same. Viper’s damage is effectively nerfed by much more than 70 because of this change. Not to mention that the damage scaling by the timing you do the UC Combo already almost makes that 40 damage nerf on UC negligible.
Then it depends which parts have the reduced damage right?
I know it’s the MP TK EX Seismo chip and damage now reduce now making Viper need to do one or two more combos/hits now but she’s still left mostly unchanged.
And again, Capcom never reveals all the changes.
It doesn’t amaze me that the forum with the biggest population of nitpickers manages to dedicate a topic to this.
God damn it, guys. Some of you depressing. I’m beginning to wish for ninja nerfs, just to spite you, so we’ll learn to appreciate what we’ve got. I honestly think it’s fucking ironic that not-viper players are telling viper players that what they got isn’t so bad- and that they’re telling the truth.
brb going to twitter
There’s nothing else to discuss really. We pretty much all knew her damage was gonna take a hit(though I didn’t expect TK and EX Seismo nerfs.) Her core gameplan’s still there and her damage will still be good probably. I’m more concerned about the other character’s buffs.
I’d honestly rather the (IMO, insignificant) EX Seismo and TK nerfs over a possible c.HP or BK damage nerf.
And you raise a valid point, buffs to others are more of a threat than anything.
I’d rather that people be concerned about how they’re gonna get in and deal damage to their opponent, rather than concern themselves about what damage they’re dealing. At this point it seems largely the same though.
I agree, cr.hp and BK damage would’ve been the worst things to nerf damage-wise. Those would’ve made FFF way less damaging, BK mix-ups would be less damaging too.
I don’t know about you guys but I’m pretty damn happy that her frame data on anything critical didn’t get nerfed and that Capcom felt generous to give us buffs. I expect a few more consistent ways to land U1 with the hit box buff. This should hopefully mean consistent ways to land Ultra 1 on the mirror match, Honda, Adon, and whoever fell out of FFF xx EX Seismo, SJC BK midscreen setups. Granted, it doesn’t mean much if you mastered the SJC FADC but having another option to land the Ultra is important.
I was also thinking about those point blank cross up BK Ultra when they fall in front of you. This might make it easier to land? If it’s much easier to land that’s a hugely useful setup because it’s incredibly ambiguous and you’re dealing with minimal unscaled Ultra 1 Damage.
I don’t think EX TK starting 2 frames faster does anything really but the additional -2 frames means it’s punishable with an Ultra at the right ranges not like it wasn’t before. I don’t throw the move out but when you screw up a feint it can be more costly now. I only used the move against Akuma, Bipson, Seth, and Dhalshim.
Yeah, the U1 buff is something I’m really happy about actually. In return for loss of damage, they made it more reliable(how much more remains to be seen.)
I can understand why people are pissed, nobody wants nerfs haha. But IMO, not much has changed and like I said before, it’s most likely depend on how the other chars got buffed/nerfed.
Also, seeing as the Viper haters got what they wanted(kinda), hopefully they’re satisfied and they can STFU about her. But I know that’s not going to happen.
They should nerf viper!
Get rid of her ex invince frames
get rid of super jump bks
and put a height restriction on insta bk.
There virtually no impact from her nerfs
-10 on tk? Whatever
-20 on ex seismo? Whatever
The biggest impact/“nerfs” comes from her bad matchups getting better…
If you are a Viper player and complaining about these nerfs, you should be ashamed