Balrog’s headbutt is an anti air. The MGU isn’t an anti air. I think Capcom wanted to be able to give different characters ultra juggles after their anti air.
They also nerfed the headbutt in AE and remember how everyone was happy with that?
lol you can use the upperbody invincibility of L.MGU to anti-air say Ryu J.HK then xx super xx U1(found out when playing around with L.MGU). So Deejay could technically anti air juggle into Ultra with a special.
I never thought EXMGU was meant to be used as viable reversal, I would be happy with:
>L.sobat kills all crouching or mids moves
>EX Upkick kills all standing moves
Or plainly.
>Extend the 1st active frame of EXupkick lower
So we’d at least be able to spend 1 bar which normally wouldn’t do anything for us.
I think making hk upkicks beat mids and lows would be a real improvement as well. +1
Also, buffing the speed on his c.short would really go a long way in giving him some viable crouch teching and making generic punishes easier.
I agree Jcool, It would make him better off and giving us the same desired effect of more mixups for tick throw setups/lk.sobat traps.
In the Ryu example at frame perfect timing the second jab would become active on frame 13 which would trade with EX-MGU first active frame. Actually doing a bit more research from the SRK frame data shows this:
Start Active Recovery
Fei: 3f 2f 9f
Ken: 3f 3f 6f
Boxer: 3f 2f 5f
Honda: 4f 4f 7f
Guile: 4f 2f 8f
Cammy: 3f 2f 6f
Dudley: 3f 2f 7f
Akuma: 3f 2f 7f
DeeJay: 4f 2f 6f
Chun: 3f 3f 5f
I picked characters at random and was trying to think what characters have good cr.lp. From the “table above” we can see a pattern with the exception of Cammy, Chun and Boxer that the second cr.lp would either trade or loose to EX-MGU at frame perfect timing.
To be honest the EX-MGU buff seemed like a good idea at the time, but it get’s blow out of the water with the suggestion of HK upckicks hitting mid and crouching opponents. In ST DeeJay’s Upckicks never hit crouching opponents, and I strongly believe that SF4 Deejay was modeled after ST DeeJay (they just did a crappy job and SF4 is a different animal to ST) so I don’t think that Capcom would make the HK Upkicks hit crouching opponents. That being said I am all for HK upkick buff, if we don’t ask for it they want even think about it.
^ that’s the right mentality
honestly ex mgu is an ass reversal all those paragraphs are pointless
simply put: ex mgu doesn’t have enough invincibility for most moves to pass through. Even the sloppiest meaties go through it or outright beat it.
like i said earlier more invincibility with that slow start up would lead to get OS’d hard. cr. jab OS ultra all day on his wake up. We already have to block when we see it coming. That would not solve anything.
it would need less recovery or more invincibility, but unlike Rog it leads into a full ultra animation in the corner and midscreen if you can do it.
i’d much rather take hk upkicks.
6f startup
unthrowable
unsafe if you guess wrong
would get stand jabbed out of it
other upkicks beat that
adjusting ex upkicks like in revive’s post wouldn’t hurt either, but we can’t have both. if they want deejay to get pressured without meter that’s fine cause i keep a full bar.
i have a hard time getting upkicks x2 on vega and cody at times. might just be me, but maybe i should stop playing mass effect trilogy and practice.
I have that same issue with Vega, Cody, and Yun.
That proposed hitbox is HUGE. It looks like you just mirrored the upper hitbox and offset it down maybe cut a third of it off the bottom. Something that big might not be changed. I think it would still hit low even if it did. Still, that’s a sexy hitbox lol.
also dudley + Adon
lol Not hitbox expert I just added added a block to make it look like it would hit lower or somthing to that effect.
It would only be active for 1frame
EX JACKNIFE
>frame 1- Invul
>frame 2-Invul
>frame 3-Invul, Airborne
>frame 4-Invul, Airborne [1st Hitbox Active]
>frame 5-Invul, Airborne
>frame 6-Invul, Airborne
>frame 7-Invul, Airborne
>frame 8-Invul, Airborne
>frame 9-Airborne [2nd Hitbox Active]
>frame 10-Airborne
>frame 11-Airborne
>frame 12-Airborne
>frame 13-Airborne
>frame 14-Airborne
>frame 15-Airborne [3rd Hitbox Active]
...
second horrible hitboxhttp://img853.imageshack.us/img853/225/201032419105mp4snapshot.jpg
double post
Spidercarnage: One quirk about frame data, the way it’s written out, moves become active on the last frame of startup; so in the example of Ryu’s cr.lp, it starts up on frames 1-2, is active on frames 3-4, and recovers from frames 5-11. EX MGU would become active on frame 12 and knock Ryu out of startup of a second link-timed jab, but a chained jab would hit on frame 7 and beat EX MGU unless I’m wrong about how chaining works.
mike the tv the problem is people are using the wrong terms
let’s look at ryu’s cr jab
everybody says it has a 3f start up, but that is TECHNICALLY incorrect.
it has a 2f startup and HITS on the 3rd frame.
that’s why its a 3f execution meaning it hits on the third frame.
its interchangeable now because ppl have messed up the terms, but technically a lot of ppl are wrong. I use the wrong terminology not to perpetuate, but to save an argument and not confuse ppl.
Jcool that’s how I use to read the old ST frame data, but when I had a look at the SRK and Eventhubs wikis for SF4 their frame data is written in this new style.
So dose our week begging this coming Monday?
Looking at the start of threads on C-U about it, the week either starts Thursday/Friday.
It is supposed to start on Friday the 5th.
so what’s our post going to be? Let’s put together that final draft.
You ain’t tha captain nigga! DansGame… <3 by the way are you gonna go to this tourney?
http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13319
Here is an updated draft post, largely ready for copy-pasting over. I’ve incorporated more suggestions and organized it a bit more, giving longer justifications for the most important stuff. I can add bolding/formatting a bit later on, as well as incorporate another round of additions if we move fast.
Hi, I’m Mike the TV, a Dee Jay main and tournament commentator in Melbourne, Australia. Since the re-balance announcement, I have been working with the Dee Jay community on the Shoryuken.com forums to try to determine what changes would make our beloved character’s viability approach how much fun to play he is, and how to make his general play-style even more exciting. This post compiles the suggestions from this post, linked below:
Link to SRK thread: AE v2013 Deejay wishlist
The general consensus is that Dee Jay is not a viable tournament character because of certain key weaknesses, which, if addressed, would go a long way toward improving his viability. He might also benefit from other buffs and certain hitbox interaction adjustments. That said, we don’t actually think he needs all that much to be a much more viable character.
For ease of organization, I’ve divided this post into a set of different kinds of relevant adjustments to Dee Jay. First, this post will cover generic weaknesses across all match-ups, which we hold to be the highest priority items for re-balance consideration. Second, match-up specific issues (including hitbox interactions) will be examined. Third, play-style issues will be raised. Fourth, some general buffs will be proposed.
Section 1: Biggest generic weaknesses across all matchups:
Dee Jay has no option to beat crouching meaties (w/Option Select) on wakeup that isn’t LK Super/Ultra 2. With quickly recovering normals, these options are not all that viable. Consequently, Dee Jay has no option to diffuse wakeup pressure in certain matchups.
Potential fixes: This is perhaps the trickiest problem, and consequently a variety of changes were proposed. For reasons that will be explained in the following itemized list, we generally favour the Jackknife Maximum adjustments over the others, but encourage Capcom to investigate all the options.
-
EX Machine Gun Upper (MGU):
If EX MGU is meant to be a way for Dee Jay to beat meaty attacks on wakeup, its long startup coupled with short invulnerability gives a long window for it to be beaten out of start-up. Proposed adjustments to fix this include:
a) Give EX MGU 1 hit of Armor.
b) Shorten EX MGU startup.
c) Add more invulnerability to EX MGU (6f, up from 4).
Given EX MGU’s ability to combo into Ultra 2, this presents a very complicated balancing issue. -
Double Rolling Sobat
Adjusting the invulnerability on 1-2 versions of Double Rolling Sobat can help fix this issue, but this runs into similar issues to EX MGU because of the even longer startup, particularly with option selects considered. -
Jackknife Maximum (Upkick)
Extending the hitbox of 1-2 versions of Jackknife Maximum to hit crouchers allows a risky option when the Dee Jay player makes a read. We favour adding this property to HK Jackknife Maximum, because it is the least used and most risky reversal option that Dee Jay has. A further possibility would be adding this hitbox adjustment to the EX version to allow the Dee Jay to risk burning a bar to reset the spacing.
Dee Jay’s 5-frame cr.lk makes crouch-teching more difficult and limits his ability to perform empty jump mix-ups.
Potential fix: Adjusting cr.lk startup to 4f would facilitate crouch-teching as well as diversify Dee Jay’s offensive options.
Gaps in his anti-air spacings allow guaranteed jumpins if Dee Jay is not charged.
Potential fix: Lowering the hurtbox of cr.hp to slightly below how far its hitbox extends will give Dee Jay a reliable anti-air normal to cover the main gap. (Taking a frame off of its startup would be a nice bonus).
Section 2: Matchup-specific issues and hitbox interactions.
In some matchups (Guile, Cody, Vega), LK Sobat is not a viable pressuring tool because of being -5 on block, but Dee Jay needs to get in.
Potential fix: Adjust blockstun value resulting in -3 disadvantage on block.
Dash Ultra 2 is not consistent on characters with small falling hurtboxes. (Adon/Yun/Vega/Cody, mainly)
Potential fixes: Shorten the launch arc of EX Machine Gun Upper such that a dash is still required to land the ultra but that the Ultra will connect consistently on all characters.
Ultra 2’s maraca animation deprives players of post-ultra setups and actively endangers them for landing it in some matchups (e.g. Gief with U2).
Potential fixes: Remove the animation when the ultra does not result in a KO, make the animation cancellable. Lesser option: Leave Dee Jay further away from the opponent after landing Ultra 2.
The MK Jackknife Maximum x2 juggle does not connect consistently on characters with small falling hitboxes (Yun/Vega/Adon/Cody, mainly).
Potential fix: Adjust hitbox/falling arc from this move.
Some characters fall out of the last hit of barraged Machine Gun Uppers.
Potential fixes: Extend forward hitbox slightly, or add pursuit property after first hit.
In some situations, the first hit of MK/HK Double Rolling Sobat will hit and the second will whiff.
Potential fix: Add pursuit property after the first hit.
In some non-juggle situations, Ultra 1 will not connect after the first hit.
Potential fix: Adjust hitbox or pursuit properties of this move.
Ultra 1 has too little forward range to be broadly useful as an anti-fireball ultra, and starts up too slowly to punish some fireballs on reaction. We would generally like to see more utility to this move than just the Super->Ultra cancel.
Potential fix: Increase forward range and the speed with which Dee Jay covers it, adjust startup.
Section 3 - Playstyle issues:
As mentioned in the generic weakness section (Section 1), the current state of cr.lk (5f start-up) restricts playstyle. The listed potential fix was to reduce the start-up to 4f.
Knee Shot’s hit/hurtboxes can use small improvements to help make Dee Jay’s pressure game more viable.
The current design of Rolling Sobat forces players to make an uninteresting choice between extra damage and completely relinquishing pressure, or a soft knockdown.
Potential fix: Adding a soft knockdown to MK/HK Rolling Sobat maintains the damage/setup dynamic, but allows Dee Jay to increase his overall combo damage. With different spacings by strength, these moves allow a range of possible setups as well as offers the player choices for resetting spacing. This would represent a buff, but would also make Dee Jay more interesting to play in terms of the choices players would have to make with him.
Counterpoking with Dee Jay is bad because of a combination of few active frames and poor hitboxes on his normals in general.
Potential fix: Extend hitboxes of cr.mp/hp, possibly swap a recovery frame for an active one on these.
Counterhit st.hp does not launch consistently.
Potential fix: Give this move counter-hit launch on all active frames.
Section 4 - General buffs:
Note: This section is packed with ideas that are less grounded in consensus but are widely believed to be worth examining by re-balance staff.
Some players have suggested shortening the startup of cr.lp from 3f to 4f.
Far st.mp startup shortened to 6f (from 7).
LK Sobat regaining its unthrowable property from Super Street Fighter 4.
Cr.HK startup reduced to 12f (from 14).
Cl.hp hits crouchers.
Slight reduction in Air Slasher startup frames.
Conclusion
We thank you for your consideration of the above listed issues. We hope to see more players getting lost in the beat and getting tournament wins. OH YEAH!
I’ve posted a slightly edited version of the above to C-U, as their thread is up and I wanted to get this in early to help frame the discussions.
I am the overloard of rhythm KevinTurtle
and as for that tournament its late friday in new jersey. so much traffic getting there and home.
Idk if my team would bother taking me. we’ve talked about it cause i know the guy who runs it, its just inconvenient.