wow thats how much damage Super does. do 2 of those and a stand fierce and they’re dead.
I have done cr lp HHS HHS HHS vs. zangief before and I can’t remember how much damage it does because I don’t think the full hands hit on the 3rd hit but I think that alone is worth it for the meter build.
starting to re-think my position on EX Hands…
The only problem in those combos is the muscle memory, because we are so used to do cr. lp xx hp hands, you really have to work on getting ex hands reliably instead of hp hands.
The only difference I can see with the extra frame of adv on ex hand is being able to combo in cl mk now. Also cr.lk. it is plus 5 so that is now possible. It will add to mixup on hit as now he can do cr lk instead of always cr jab. I think linking into cl mk will be best as that adds a lot of dmg on characters that cl mk hhs~hhs/hk works on. It also means characters that cl mk buttslam/ex buttslam works Will now have to start holding those.
P.S. How many of you know about cr.lk~cl.mk-ex slam?
I didnt know
I knew, it’s special cancellable after all.
I knew , quite tricky though
I couldn’t really use it very much now outside of a crumple or jumpin because I can’t get a spontaneous charge with just cr lk and I could barely hit confirm hit. I would usually use 2 cr lk but that combo only works on a few characters.It also doesn’t do optimal damage. Its value comes from the fact that it is the only way to combo into a knockdown with honda(or cr. Mk-medium/light buttslam). In ultra I will use it or just raw clmk ex slam after ex hands. I think that would make his comeback potential better. I still want something to make defense better though. I am really going to miss the 5 minutes honda actually had a real wrestler tool. Maybe if they make ex oichio just hit immune instead. Or make it keep people in front of you now that the utility is almost gone.
we might get some buffs back, who knows. they sseem to be going “ok heres the character strong, heres the character weak” maybe they will settle in the middle.
whats the advantage to using ex splash instead of hp headbutt, is the 20 extra damage really worth the meter? i dont find knockdowns particularly rewarding for honda on buttslam, cant cross up and vs some characters i dont wanna be that close. cant whiff oicho for meter. almost forced into a 50-50 buttslam, oicho, ex headbutt (safe), block or focus bait.
So, any news about the changes ? I understand someone mentioned that U2 is now 0+1 (jumpable) again ? That would be terrible.
Everyone keeps saying different things, so I honestly don’t know.
After thinking about the viability and usefulness of comboing into Ultra 1 with ex rfa.
Will you guys ever use Double ultra on some characters, even with the hefty damage reduction of 60%?
I find it hard to use u1 outside of comboing into it with rfa.
With the added reduction it won’t do a lot of dmg due to scaling (from ex rfa) and can easily be replaced with Super…
Personally, I feel like sticking with U1 or U2 depending on the matchup.
latest build will be at Final Round, middle of march. dont think theres gonna be anything new til then.
as far as U2 this is what it says on capcom unity
•Orochi Breaker: Starts up faster after the flash (2F->1F)
to me that means 0+1
I know for sure now that kara tiger upper will not punish ex headbutt on block now because it can hardly even punish MP as is, its -10 and its a 1 frame punish.
no one has still really answered me what punishes we are going to see off a nerfed EX headbutt. I know Evil Ryu was a concern as he can punish w/ cr MK… well you can just HP headbutt him for free. its also gonna be like a 1 fr punish
balrog is probably gonna be the worst one really but now we have a better range u2… might wash out
i dont think rufus will get anything off it nor seth.
akuma can probably sweep you but at least we’ve got delay wakeup.
seems like really nothings gonna change about how i play. doubt ill ever use ex oicho still. i have an OS that already basically makes it throw invincible for free (use LP+LK and it will tech) ok the ex would beat it… not worth the bar imo.
ex hands is probably the best thing we are getting now actually i practiced it a lot on the weekend its really not even that hard currently.
"Honda players have come to consensus on srk on one thing: ex oichio needs hit invincibility. They also all agree that using there command grab against opponents in the corner is bad due to placement afterwards. Proposed change:
This will also stop him from destroying characters that rely on cmd grab pressure since he already does well against them. Most cmd grab reliant characters ex grab beats strikes but lose to grabs. There is no reason not to make hondas similar.
They also agree that ultra 1 is still poor.
This was posted by me in capcom unity. Please tell me you guys think this is fair. It would be silly to ask for more to me.
I don’t know how you can say that HHS into u1 is fair… its just not. 4frame safe hit confirm into 500 damage for no bars. Rufus’ u1 is probably the best in the game @ 350 damage with stupid divekick combos in. its gettin nerfed to 310 or 320. hondas would need to be the same. people who think u1 is poor are just bad and can’t read fireballs. I’m all for honda buffs but i am trying to be objective here.
i’m not against strike invincible ex oicho though since we are getting this dumb nerf on ex headbutt. I mean its not going to be like baiting a DP but its annoying. would be nice to have an additional option. Here’s your typical scenario as it stands:
opponent meaty’s : ex hb wins, ex oicho loses, block ties, throw loses
opponent DPs: ex hb ties, ex oicho loses, block wins, throw loses
opponent jumps: ex hb loses, ex oicho loses, block ties, throw ties
oppoent blocks: ex hb loses / ties, ex oicho wins, block ties, throw wins
w/ invincible oicho:
meaty:wins
dp: wins
jumps: ties vs jump back / loses to neutral jump
block: wins
basically wins in every situation… i can see how that might also be too strong as well. honda would be impossible to pressure… plus with delayed wakeup. so yeah thats probably not happening either.
just leave ex hb alone god damnit
Im also afraid that full inv oicho is too strong. But strike inv would have been better than throw. Its a.buff anyway, so it will get some use at least instead of it.being just a screwed up input for ex.headbutt when crossed up. Ex.hb didnt really need a nerf, but it looks that they are destroying every single safe reversal so its just the direction they are takinig with this version for everyone.
This really depends.
I mean if the opponent jumps BACK, then yea ex hb loses, but oicho will be a tie (you got away from pressure so it’s not a total waste), block wins (pushing opponent closer to corner), throw also wins (same as block scenario).
If the opponent neutral jumps or forward jumps, then ex hb is a tie, ex oicho loses, block is a win (you attempt to block, but you can react AA neutral jumps and autocorrect ex hb vs forward jump for example), throw tech is also a win since u can recover in time to AA.
[quote=“Angerus, post:336, topic:155606”]
I hope both of you haven’t forgotten that plenty of characters can meaty honda with certain jabs/shorts and even a few medium strength pokes on his wakeup and if he reversal ex hb’s it just gets blocked because it is too slow. Boxer is the best example of this. His cr/st jab is so fast, so plus and has such great range that if he meaties with one can do another and then another then a far standing and if you ex hb he gets to block after this stupidly free pressure. He is not alone. Backdash is pointless against the people who can do this because honda’s bdash is a slow 27frames gets covered by sweeps for free. Strike invulnerable oichio solves this kind of garbage when you have the read that hey this guy won’t stop pressing buttons.
Dash and Walk speed frame data. Be warned this does not include level one focus dash on hit. Honda is noticeably minus when he hits lvl 1 fa and tries to dash forward. http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2010/may/02/walk-speed-comparison-super-street-fighter-4/
Yeah, after reading carefully the changes, it seems U2 will be 0+1 afterall…oh well.
As for ultras - I also think I’m gonna stick to 1 ultra. The dmg reduction is too heavy, and since the ultras are not as good anymore…
Right now is tough to punish them because the pushback on block leaves Honda far away, so the opponent needs to have a fast move with very goods range (ex Fei’s rekkas) - and not many have it.
If Ex Headbutt pushback on block will be reduced to around ~half - many characters will be able to punish it because it lands closer.
What will punish Ex Headbutt:
I only looked for characters that gives Honda trouble (the rest of the cast will also have something). This is the least they will be able to do. It’s possible to be even worse
I didn’t forget, I just quoted and replied to the part of when an opponent decides to jump.
It is true that Honda’s wakeup can easily be exploited with the right setups, doing a meaty coupled with an OS.
Though, this is completely different now that DWU is here. The depth of options is A LOT bigger.
Assuming you can’t visually confirm if Honda makes use of DWU. This is how the new meta will look like considering meaty normals into OS vs Honda’s wakeup I think.
For this example: Ryu’s jabs (close lp and cr.lp) are his best meaty normals to beat or dodge reversal EX headbutt. It has 11 total duration frames.
As you may know by now, DWU delays your wakeup by exactly 11 frames. Assuming Ryu makes use and wins with his DP OS, here’s the new meta scenario and options I’m imagining basically;
(btw this can also apply if Honda decides to backdash or buttslam on wakeup, but not U1 since it now has 10fr startup instead of 11fr)
Knocked down Honda: blocks
Knocked down Honda: DWU + blocks
Knocked down Honda: Reversal EX hb
Knocked down Honda: DWU + EX hb
Edit: The depth gets deeper if you think about Focus cancelling ex headbutt on block to counter a blocked headbutt punish attempt.
Ofcourse this in turn gets beaten if Ryu decided to OS DP the EX headbutt in the first place, but I haven’t put much thought into this.
Edit2: Forgot about Focus attacking on wakeup.
Am I missing some additional key options or Is this pretty much how it boils down?
Imo, it relieves a lot of pressure off of Honda, but Ryu can still make great use of his pressure when Honda is meterless like before.
DWU means Ryu can’t safejump os his dp anymore, that shit was terrible in an allready terrible matchup