i dont think DP could get it from there. theres not much horiztonal on them. MAYBE a FP its got a little more horiztonal. I still dont think it would.
flash kick, HK I think for sure could hit it, it has good horiztonal. its a 4 frame punish, plus extended reversal window up front, i wouldnt say thats hard timing. gotta admit thats gonna suck however you dont even need this move vs. Guile on offense.
needs just the littlest more push back or +1 or +2 recovery (make it -6 or -7) to save our asses. Again its not the end of the world but it’s gonna be annoying.
Balrog WILL be able to dash punsh that. I don’t know if he can reach a cr LP though which would lead to u1. U1 starts up 8 fr w/ kick so going by that then no… but apparently you could already punish it in vanilla. Can’t be bothered to check vanilla frame data.
This is a matchup where it is actually going to be relevant. LP headbutt can be easily reacted to with headbutt -> ultra 1 so its a good alternative if you have a life lead and you want to scare him from walking forwards. could make the matchup 6-4. I want to say its 5-5 as is but people say its 5.5 boxer.
Bison won’t be able to touch it still
give me some specific examples of big damage punishes on this though… I mean when I think of HP headbutt punishes, many can punish with ultra, but other than those examples the punishes are never really that massive (although theres more pushback) Are there any ultras that couldnt punish it before but now can due to spacing? I can’t think of any.
Vega is going to get cr MP into ex Sky High. that will blow. but thats his best punish on it, we’re talking maybe 150-160 damage for 1 bar.
It really doesn’t look like fast normals will be able to get it - i.e. combo into stuff thats worth a lot of health. They are still going to have to use a move that shoots them forward quickly with good horiztontal range and faster than 8fr startup.
EX headbutt will be punishable by a lot of character’s long reaching normals, but what I also just realized is that they could potentially capatilise on that long reaching normal punishment by EX red focusing at the pricey cost of 3 meter bars and getting a crumple. I might be stating the obvious here, but it’s still interesting to keep in mind.
I suppose so, but that seems a hard thing to do. Also it’s quite risky for Dhalsim, because if he screws it up, he’s obviously in for a world of pain.
Hard to say if level 1 would start that fast, can you just tap the 3 buttons and boom- crumple? That oepns loads of punishes for the entire cast so no wonder they are nerfing the shit out of all this stuff. Punish galactic tornado on block w ex red focus into u1? 3rd blocked hit of a rekka? Blocked spiral arrow? Everythings unsafe vs that shit then
You make a valid point and I suppose all normals that can combo into ex focus attack lvl 1, will also probably work the same way for red focus (In Honda’s case, I suppose it’s c.HP, s.HP and cl.HP xx ex rfa). Iow, I don’t think you’ll be able to combo and confirm into ex rfa from light attacks (st.jab, c.jab xx ex rfa).
Though, I do think Honda can confirm and punish everything that’s at least -4 with a c.jab x hhs xx rfa for example from a reasonable range.
was just thinking about that this morning… so off 3 bars we should be getting HHS xx Red FADC xx u1 or u2. u1 is 60 more damage though so would be a better bet. anyway thats 1 bar less than you need right now.
But here’s the thing - what’s the scaling going to be on that like? cl lp xx HHS xx Super right now nets you 405 damage i believe with scaling. super on its own does 400 damage.
just doing some work here if red focus scales + damages the same way regular focus does that means you will get your cr lp + hhs (2 moves) 40 + 15 + 64 for scaled focus (4 moves now) + 306 for u1 = 425 damage minimum (for each additional hands hit you can get 15 damage so it could potentially be 485 dmg)
so really about the same damage. glad i actually looked into how the scaling works just now, realized a lot of things i didnt know.
so even if you have super fully stocked would be better to just use the 3 bars and hit u1 and have 1 left over for ex headbutt AA
You can only super or focus attack cancel the first 4 hits of hands.
I updated the rfa combo list I once posted in the combo thread now that I know that ex rfa does x1.5 dmg from FA lvl1.
[details=Spoiler]
This is assuming you have a full stocked ultra, that red focus does x1.5 dmg of regular focus attack lvl 1 and is concidered 2 moves in a combo counter.
Ok thanks for clearing that up so the damage is basically the same ~ +20 dmg at full u1.
Basically if you are in a situation where you will kill them/close to kill, you will spend just 3 bars and spend the ultra. then at least you’ve got 1 more bar for round 2 if applicable.
if they have more than 50% health you would probably just use super (so at least you have u1 to go through a fireball / whatever OR if you simply don’t have u1 stocked yet
1 more thing to keep in mind is if the safe jump setup is important to you or not off super. i think u1 has safe jump setups too though.
The combo does great amount of damage, but my most favorite thing about comboing into ultra is that it always guarantees in carrying the opponent to the corner where we truly shine, control and take matches (especially against Guile for example). Ofcourse we also get a safejump out of it.
I will use Super instead of ultra in specific matchups like cornered shotos though, because we can get a really easy fake xup on them with fierce hhs (whiff), forward jump HK.
I also added the dmg to the combo list (in my previous post) for when you have only half of ultra bar filled and I must say that the dmg really isn’t that bad if it’s extended.
right, forgot about the corner carry. thats huge actually.
i need to learn more setups! that one sounds nice against shotos.
I have a video I have to show you, ill try and upload it soon, I used Cl St. fierce as a meaty on ryu’s wakeup in the corner. So if he presses anything but throw at worst its a favourable trade for Honda.
Also I experimented with my OS, it fully works, tested in training mode so its not just theory now (oicho throw w/ lp+lk) it will in fact tech throws were inputted at the same time, but also will oicho them if they pressed a button. i mean if your meaty timings are perfect then it doesnt matter but mine are not so it has saved me a few times when pressuring on wakeup.
Im not the best honda but I was thinking cr lp xx ex hands could be a good way to wiff punish because it moves you forward and now with the added frame advantage you could get a lot of damage. It might be quite hard to do but im sure if you practiced it it would be do able . Any thoughts ???
It’s not a bad thought. Honda couldn’t do c.lp xx hhs from all ranges, it’s even punishable on block and hit by some characters from max range.
I think With EX hands being more viable, we have a more threatening footsie range.
cr LP xx FP HHS is like super super standard punish as is.
The EX is really irrellevant at that point because the jab is 4 frames startup, whether you decide to go into EX or just FP is your own choice. the frame advantage comes at the end of the EX hands so it won’t actually make it any easier to do; the only thing it makes easier is something like this:
cr lp xx FP HHS, EX HHS, FP HHS
or
cr lp xx FP HHS, EX HHS, EX HHS
etc.
What the 1 extra frame of advantage DOES do though, is now these combos will work on many more characters. Right now they are somewhat character specific.
I personally don’t like the combos i find them unreliable but there are lots of guys who really like them.
Now that we only need 3 bars to get a big damage combo (hands Red FADC ultra 1 instead of having to sepnd 4 bars on super) you could probably do something like
cr lp xx FP HHS, EX HHS, FP HHS xx Red Focus xx Ultra 1
for some pretty stupid damage (probably 550 from a hit confirm? lol)
I was just thinking it would be do able because of the forward movement of ex hands because I know regular hhs wiffs at a lot of ranges and with the added frame advantage a follow up would be easier . But I do know it would be tricky to pull it all of consistently
c.lp (40), f.hhs (157=105), ex hhs (207=14080%)[112], c.lp (4070%)[28], f. HHS (154=7060%)[36], ( ex rfa (12040%)[48], ultra 1 (348~51020%) [70~102]
= 439~ 471
If you replace rfa with s.HK, you get 398 dmg in total.
In conclusion, If I’d use ex hands, I wouldn’t likely go into ultra, but rather stick with ending it with s.HK for solid 400 dmg. (also builds 240 meter I think, unless meter gain scales. A single bar = 250)
[details=Spoiler]c.lp (40), f.hhs (157=105), ex hhs (207=14080%)[112], c.lp (4070%)[28], f. HHS (157=7060%)[63], s.HK (100*50%)[50]
= 398[/details]
edit
Tested it out in training mode, and it does indeed build almost 1 bar:
My combo should be possible still, its just more character specific. I have done it against cammy. But the way you are doing it with the added cr LP is definitely easier to hit. This is probably why I am struggling with my ex hands combos so much. You get +10 off hands, and ex is 9 fr startup. So that means its a 2 fr link right? Doing it with cr lp well you get an extra 5 frames. Character specific of course but works on a decent amount.
You can’t Fierce hands after EX hands. EX hands is +4 (or +5 in ultra) on hit and fierce hands has 9 fr startup.
I only added the c.lp because it has 4fr startup and it is the only tool that can combo from ex hands into fierce hands.
so the damage is basically the same ~ +20 dmg at full u1.
