I’m not sure, maybe there will be a setup in the future that’s just a regular xup safejump and if Honda makes use of DWU, the safejump will turn into an ambiguous cross up, where it’s hard to autocorrect ex headbutt.
Also, there’s less reason for Ryu to use OS I think, since EX headbutt is punishable on block anyways, backdash is meh and buttslam is visually confirmable to be punishable.
I dont think anything is bottom-tier putting about that list i just want to remain solid mid i think we should be OK given the nerfs/buffs gameplay mechaninc changes
Alright, after spending some time in the lab, I was able to compile a comprehensive list with who/what will punish Ex Headbutt in Ultra.
First, in v.2012 - who can punish Ex Headbutt:
Meterless:
So, basically in v.2012 4 characters can reliable punish Ex Headbutt.
In Ultra: - who can punish Ex Headbutt:
You missed a couple
Then there are also a lot of punishes characters can do when you headbutt in the corner but I haven’t explored it too much. Here are a few examples that do work that I know of
To be honest I think there is no way to escape this - it has to be more punishable now because of delayed wakeup. It’s such a strong buff for Honda that he needs a nerf like this or else his defense would just be way too strong. The power of EX headbutt is still there, and to be honest, if you let them in and need it as a “get off me” - you fucked up in the first place.
that being said, around 12-15 guys can punish with ultras now, thats pretty bad. Huge thing to keep in mind in these matchups.
most of them are a trade-off for delayed standing so its completely fair. many of them are shitty matchups to begin with.
The vega + dhalsim ones are really bad if we could just save those 2 with a bit of a reduction on the nerf i think the rest would be fine. those 2 i will probably start to use Guile against, they are gonna get really bad.
nothing character breaking really most of the ones that punish ultra, you can use an MP if you want to offensive push
the fact that the game will be more neutral game focused is just a huge plus for me because i cant stand setup play and that is where i lose the majority of my matches (bullshit that is a guess which way to block and with what follow up)
keep in mind too its a really fast move and they have to be ready for these punishes and will require very tight timings
You say Balrog Honda is 6-4 in Balrog’s favor, but you seem to forget that his dashpunches are flat out punishable on hit and block by our u2, so he might punish ex headbutt with a sweep for example, but he’s going to have a riskier time punishing medium and heavy headbutt.
Also we have less fear of just walking forward and just pushing him into the corner by walking.
Btw, can’t bison punish ex headbutt with c.mp xx special or st.mp xx special?
^good point about u2… i already like it in this match anyway. I FADC through sweeps a lot, raw on wakeup when they are standing right on my corpse (so many rogs like meaty pressure) and of course FADC dash punches… if you can do that shit on block with the range upgrade… say gnight Joe!!!
No, Mp range is too short.
Anyway, let me post post that list in a slightly different order:
I’ll take out Fei, Yang, Dudley and Chun who can already punish Ex Hb reliable. I also take out Blanka and Akuma since I’m not very sure if their ultra will punish it.
Ex Headbutt punishes order based on dmg potential:
[details=Spoiler]
Out of top 10 best punishes we have: Dhalsim, Sagat, Guile, Vega and Evil Ryu who already beats Honda; Abel, Balrog, Cody and Ibuki who are evenish; only Gen is considered a favourable matchup
Out of bottom 10 worst punishes we have: Ryu and Gouken, bad matches; Yun and Oni, evenish onesl and Zangief, Bison, Dan, Dee Jay, Hawk and Hakan who are good matches for Honda.
Put it other way: this nerf will make Bison and gief to deal 90 dmg to Honda, while Sagat/Guile and sim at least 180 dmg. Ex Headbutt nerf will be of little help for characters that already struggle against Honda, while making his bad matches even worst.
I think this is very wrong and one of the reasons why I think this nerf should be removed. I will talk about the whole DWU helping Honda a little later.
Lol that is really dumb though when you think of it like that… that spot you were talking about before would be perfect if they are bent on nerfing it.
How did you test all this btw?
If you’re using the mod, I was able to punish it quite easily
Don’t forget that stand blocking can even yield better punish results.
Also, now that I see this list of things that could punish Honda’s ex hb on block.
Most punishes here start with a basic normal xx something or nothing extra.
I’m not sure (I don’t know how large the opening is between ex headbutt and the FA), but can’t Honda EX headbutt and then cancel it into a focus attack and get a counterhit crumple off of that if the opponent was looking to attempt and punish the ex headbutt on block? If we’re able to do that, then the opponent will have to be a bit more respectful as soon as we have 3 meter.
Ofcourse this doesn’t apply to characters that use DPs or ultras to punish ex headbutt.
Have either of you tried walking up then pressing a button to punish? I am pretty sure Thu can punish with a walk up sweep. Don’t say its hard either, we do walk up button after hands all the time for combos.
I didn’t use the mod. The problem with the mod is that, form my understanding, he made the nerf to Ex Hb aproximatelly.
I asked a friend of mine who went to the lock test in Cali to try it for me. He plays Ken and Evil Ryu, and he told me Ex Hb lands somewhere in the range of Ken’s cr Mk, but he couldn’t punish it with Ken. But he said he can punish it with Evil Ryu’s cr mk. I have a spreadsheet with Honda’s normal vs other character’s normals (I want ot post it one of these days), I checked E Ryu’s cr mk and it has a range of 7 squares. From here it was simple - I just went into the training room with every character, put him at 7 squares from Honda, and check what punishes can he get.
Now, if the mod is right, and Bison can punish us with cr mp, Honda is screwed big time (but my guess is that Bison can’t).
Anyway, regarding the DWU:
[details=Spoiler]people say Honda will benefit from it a lot, and he will. But the question is - does it warrant a big nerf to Honda ?
Let’s take Honda’s matchups and see how much will dwu help:
First, I’m no expert, but from my little understanding, DWU will affect the most characters that relies on KD and are heavy on setups, since dwu’s 11 fr will screw with their setups.
But for the rest of the matches ? I don’t see things changing significantly:
ex.: Ryu: yeah, sure, Honda will have an easier time on kd against him, but the problem is - Ryu does not beat Honda because he knocks him down. He beats Honda because he can zone him out really well. This will still be true in ultra, with or without dwu
Balrog, Rose, Cody, Oni: evenish matches right now. These characters will mostly benefit from dwu, too, so no changes here either.
Viper, Abel, Fuerte: at first glance these characters should suffer from dwu, but I don’t think this is true. While they have a vortex, they don’t rely that much on setups. Their mixups are simple left right - did the BK cross me up or not/ and making good reads.
So in my opinion, these characters won’t suffer that much. For what is worth, I talked with abel players and they don’t think Abel will be worse in ultra. Same thinks iPeru about El Fuerte.
So, Imo, no significant change in these matches, either.
Divekickers: cammy/rufus/yun: same as above, in my opinion divekick characters won’t suffer that much from dwu (cammy suffers more by the removal of unblockables).
ex: Rufus: right now he gives Honda problems because he can fight Honda decently in mid range, and has decent punishes ag headbutts. There is a blind spot in Honda’s AA game where if Rufus divekicks in, Honda can’t antiair him. Then if Rufus is in, he is able to run his trame trap/throw mixups.
All these things will still be true in Ultra. Sure, dwu will give Honda some respiro on kd, but I believe Rufus will still be able to aply his divekick “did he cross me up or not” game.
So, I don’t see a big shift in these matches, either.
ex.: Sakura - I picked on purpose 2 matches where Sakura beats Honda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wON4zd9BFPk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJqpx1-7R6Y
Check these matches - 90% of the dmg Sakura gets is from footsies/jump ins/ frame traps. All these will still be true in Ultra, with or without DWU.
So, at the end of the day, there’s no denying that DWU will help Honda a lot - akuma and seth matches becoming better is great - but I don’t think will be something enough to warrant Honda such a big nerf.
What is Honda now ? I believe he is a solid mid tier, but both Justin Wong and Alioune thinks he is a bottom 15 character - http://www.eventhubs.com/columns/2013/apr/29/step-your-game-chapter-131-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-v2012-tier-list/
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/feb/05/aliounes-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-v2012-tier-list/
Xian thinks he is bottom 5 - http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/jul/03/ceo-2013-champion-xians-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-v2012-pre-evo-tier-list/
Mike ross, Hoodaman and Cuongster all thinks Honda is pretty bad.
I really don’t think Honda deserves such a big nerf. It was acceptable when we had Ex Oicho full invincible, but with the removal of Ex Oicho buff, now is just not fair.
In my opinion, with the nerf to the headbutt, Evil Ryu and Sagat will become worse, Dhalsim match will be a nightmare, and Vega will be terrible. Abel, Balrog, Cody and Rufus all will become bad matches for Honda.
The biggest irony is the Seth match - DWU will help Honda, but the nerf to the Ex Hb will give Seth a solid punish, so the match will still be dreadfull.
On the other hand, Gen is the only character that struggle against Honda and that will be significantly helped by the nerf. Is Honda vs Gen such a bad match that Honda needs to be nerfed ? I really doubt. Xian beat both Mike Ross and Akimo in long sets. [/details]
In conclusion, I believe Ex Headbutt nerf should be removed (or at worst, the pushback should be increased).
Combofiend just confirmed in a PM that U2 is 0+1.
this might have more to do with my playstyle than other hondas (popular opinion is honda suffers vs. zoners, i personally struggle more against setups)
I have to say I believe DWU is massively going to help vs. divekicks. You can miss the entire divekick all together or wakeup early and reversal if the situations are right. abel / fuerte / viper is same story - you will miss their setup all together. i always lose to these guys in setups. beating them in neutral is easy (abel not so much but i still say honda has tools to do work against him there)
i personally dont find shotos bad matches i think they are all 5-5 (cept akuma 6-4), I normally lose to Ryus because they get in and they make good reads on my defense, not so much the zoning.
Vega and Dhalsim are going to be so stupidly hard to win now though. The EX Headbutt nerf is just gonna make life harder in general but I mean a lot of people would already do jump backs to shit on your EX headbutts in the first place its just now they can sit there and hold back and get a guaranteed punish without losing any ground. just interrupt a block string on purpose and hold back and you can bait out all sorts of shit. going to have to rely on buttslams a little more.
i seriously hope they just drop the nerf all together but i somehow doubt they will
So still not a really useful ultra, at least the range increase is something…
About the shoto matchups Mike, i agree with you, but online. offline everyone AAs as they should and zoning becomes more of a problem.
Anyway, things were looking good at first, and now we dont get anything significant other than the j.mp buff. Good shit I say…
Another blow: Honda’s Ultra 2 is actually already 0+1 I tested it on Ken’s Hk Tatsu that is -1 on hit - I can punish it. I also tested it on Balrog’s Lk Rush upper, which is also -1 on hit - I can punish it.
So Honda’s U2 is already 0+1, which means Capcom ain’t improving it. We are only getting a range buff (which is nice, still)
U2 have some uses being 0+1. Some punishes:
How good is the close standing heavy punch as AA in USF4? If its really good then the nerf on EX headbutt should be ok because the opponent cant get in anyway?
I’ve been using u2 to punish balrog tap, Dan (Danku and FADC), Ken (stepkick, FADC and HK tatsu), Adon (some of his jaguar tooths and jaguar kicks) and in mirror Honda matches (vs buttslam) all along.
I should really post my mu list one of these days. I have more uses for u2 in the current version but I’ll post them soon when I get back home.
U2 utility:
Vega:
Vega has a very hard time touching Honda with FBA when he focuses. If you crumple the landing vega or dash cancel the FA you can punish Vega on recovery with U2
Ken:
Honda:
Buttslams on block
Balrog:
Dan:
Sagat:
Adon:
Fei Long:
Abel:
All his Wheel Kicks on **hit **(except for EX) and block
Makoto: Hayate and her Overhead special on block (you can bait ex hayate when doing jab headbutts. Some Makotos think it’s punishable with EX hayate)
Dudley:
Sakura:
Oni:
Yun:
Yang:
wow sick list i didnt know you could use it in all those spots. its hard to have in the back of your mind when defending sometimes.
i also like u2 Vs Vega focus through sky highs
balrog focus through sweep
honda focus through buttslam
sometimes divekicks can be a good focus if you catch them on it or even just stick it out as they land.
the range upgrade will be huge though because the range on it right now is poop i whiff it so often because of that
i need to start practicing my 720s