What are you fucking talking about? I pointed out how it was funny that we took the topic from “what Yang needs” to “needs to be Cammy and more.” You’re the one who started bawling his eyes out.
I got 15,000 BP and that put me 8th in the world for god knows how long with Seth. Barely play at all, get up to 16k and I’m still top 50 (probably still top 30.) BP and whatever else you see on XBL generally means jack shit. You probably don’t go to every SF tournament and they are obviously not streamed all the time. You can’t make that call, and you sure as hell can’t make it when you can come up with names to attach to a character. I can’t even attach names to some characters after AE dropped (Chun, Dudley, Guy ie.)
And winning with Akuma consistently in less than two weeks…but not being able to win with Yang in more than a year…is losing badly in my book. No words were put anywhere, those were mine. Complaining about how you can’t grab people cuz they’re mashing cr.LK+cr.LP is on you, not Yang or his +4 jab.
Yang needs more than a band-aid, but he doesn’t need steroids.
This is Yang’s time to get back in there, so I made a list of things I’ve seen here and personally would like to see. Feel free to adjust, add and change it so we can post it on Capcom Unity!
Fix up his dive kick. It doesn’t have to be AE status, especially if he gets his j.MK cross up back, but it would be nice
Give him back his j.MK Cross up
St.LK back to 3 frames.
fst.HP - recovery reduced to 16f. Active frames reduced to 3. Frame data adjusted accordingly to remain -4 on block and +1 on hit. Mainly a footsie buff to help against grapplers
LP Rekka (2nd hit) - frame advantage on block changed to -4. Better pressure, more reason to hit confirm with LP
MP Rekkas (2nd, 3rd hit) - meter gain increased. No change to meter gained on block
HP Rekkas (2nd, 3rd hit) - damage increased to 60, 70. No change to chip damage on block
EX Rekkas changed to the following: +2 (first hit) 0 (2nd hit) -4 (third hit). Last two stay the same. This would help with Yang’s tick throw pressure
Overhead +1 on hit (+2 would be ideal) and 0 on block
Command grab retains AE range but is the same speed. EX retains throw invincibility, no increase in range
cr.LK hurtbox undone. I would like them to increase it to +5 on hit, but that seems like stretching it.
Retain the lost 1 second length for Seiei Enbu. Yang burns meter really fast, penalizing him for using a super just isn’t right.
far standing MP: hitbox/hurtbox reverted back to AE status, damage and stun scaling kept. Decreased pushback on block for cl.MP
Palms active frames and meter gain increased. Damage nerf stays.
Dragon kicks hitbox returned to AE status, fireball invincibility returned to MK version.
cr.LK damage should go up back to 30
Rekkas should go back to original damage
Maybe add some damage on his cr.MK, st.HP, and cl.standing MP
I’d like St.LK’s hitbox to go back to what it was in AE
Damage buffs are clearly justified as Yang hits weaker than a bug at the moment. ST.LK hitbox to punish better. Maybe we’d also need a bit more frame advantage on some moves to help with frame traps and additional pressure. I’m really hoping Yang turns out to be this incredible rushdown - footsies character in 2013.
On another note: We’ll have to justify the buffs that we want to be handed out for Yang, so let’s work on assembling that as well.
Justifying the reasons shouldn’t be too difficult for the important ones (st.LK and dive kick frames for example) although it may be a little harder for things like his MP range. I suppose the main reason we could use is “Yang lacks tools for the kind of character he is”, but a solid base will be needed…
you guys are right. we should buff yang to original AE status so top players pick him in tourneys again and nemo and ojisan play sf4 again. thats what its all about right.
on a more serious note, you guys should think more rationally about the combination of AE dive kick+ ambiguous left right from every landed jab+ 3 frame quarter screen normal that converts into knockdowns.
the first 2 make his own offense retard level together. spamable dive kick that true block strings into +4 on block jabs at most any hieght and 50/50s on hit on top of the strong pressure he already has.
the 3 frame lk means you convert most characters attempts at starting offense into your own pressure. like if feis cr.mp cancelled into rekkas and was 3 frames.
realisticlly if youre trying to be fair you should only look at taking one of the 3 or a lesser version of 2 of them
I would stay with yang current divekick long as he gets st short and his cross up back. This wouldn’t even make him good as yun. Why are y’all so afraid of yang having these two tools back?
After reading a lot in the forums about Yang Nerf/Buffs, his whole meta game needs improving with what the developers decided to do with only a small window to analyze the necessary data that made Yang such a great character in AE.
-Standing Short, negate the 5 frame start up and back for 3. This was such a great tool for Yang, the only normal he had that has 3 frame startup yet did little damage and scaled with Rekka but offered a knockdown and some ground distance. Standing Short is still good but with a 4 frame start isn’t as viable along with Yangs DP.
Senkyuutai nerfs destoryed Yang’s anti-air defense, partially. While standing medium is great for mix-up and various setups, Senkyuutai lost what made this important to use, shrinking the horizontal hitbox. Restore the horiztonal hitbox and increase the invincibility frames on both medium and roundhouse. It is already a risk using this move to close the gap between projectile characters and even worse with the damage nerfs and stun nerfs, make the reward worthwhile.
-Raigekishu, divekick pressure is a great tool for closing gaps. however the extra +2 frames on recovery isn’t needed. Restoring the recovery back for 4 would give players who angle their divekicks properly for frametraps/mixup. As for the ceiling of the divekick. The stun is up for debate.
-Zenpou Tenshin, It would be great giving this move some invincibility, I would not mind +3 frames of invincibility during EX and increase the active frames from 2~3. Increasing the meter gain would be great and encourage more players to use this tool. DO NOT SHRINK THE HITBOX.
As for his crossover, I would agree that although his setups are ambiguous, I would want the crossup back from AE.
Lastly, for palms. Removing the +2 extra frames on Light would be ideal, making fierce palm active as long as it was in AE is something I would like. This is just something I would like but anyone can share their ideas and thoughts.
Yang with 3f st.LK and cross up j.MK is better than Yun.
Yang with 3f st.LK and AE DK is a little worse than Yun (not really bad considering that’s like right outside of top 10…)
Yang with AE DK and cross up j.MK is basically on a level that Yun is at right now (if Yun wasn’t changed, it’d depend on how every other character was changed to determine who is better.)
3f LK didn’t just do wonders for Yang’s pressure, it also almost completely invalidated a lot of normally safe options. But 5f is just too slow with the range it has now that it can’t link into itself either. Yang has a 3f cr.LK that’s +4 and hits low so … he has a 3f normal still, pretty good one at that.
Cross up attack with any dive kick means you’re going places. People really undervalue how fucking good this combination is in SFIV. Dive kick doesn’t need to do shit as long as it can combo and you have another attack that crosses up into a combo.
yeah his st.lk being 3 frames shuts down a bunch of other characters offense. rog, fei, rose, deejay, cody etc off the top of my head all rely on shit thats -3ish. plus all the momentum you can steal by just guessing with st.lk into rekka after your op pushes out to a normally safe distance. its really strong.
but if youre aiming for top tier why stop there. return to S tier. lets get throw invul tenshin with more range and 8 frame start up. full inv ex teleport. dp active till the top of his arc. fei long frame data on rekkas.(safer tho) and no hieght restriction on dive kick. safe on block mp hp TC and lastly full animation on U2. always
Sakura also has pretty much the same reach on her st. lk. Does that really shut down the offense of those characters? Also Fei’s rekka is -4 and I’ve rarely seen it punished by Gief who has three normals with a 4-frame start-up and bigger range.
Also I think that Fei’s cr. lp has similar range as well and he doesn’t shut down those characters either.
(pretending that Yang’s st.LK is 3f)
Fei’s cr.LP does not go as far, you must be crouching, doesn’t lead into significantly better options with meter, it can’t be used as a 3f standing tech, is not + on block, and cannot convert into Rekka at long range as a confirm like Yang’s 3f st.LK could. Fei’s rekka is -4, Yang’s is -2. Yang can FADC his Rekka and be plus on block.
Bold things are big deals.
Sakura does pretty much shut down those methods of offense and thus those characters don’t use them. Which (sometimes) is okay because Sakura doesn’t walk as fast as Yang and has pretty shitty defense when she’s knocked down.
But both of these characters are already top 10 soooo
fei does shut down those characters. he doesnt beat cody. but thats because cody punishes everything except ex rekka. but yeah he beats the rest. low jab rekka is super good with him
fei gets enough push back for giefs normals not to reach in most cases. when they do reach its still a 1 frame punish with a jab or something. too risky to buffer ex hand. then if youre wrong on the spacing and fei follows with his own low jab buffered rekka, gief gets punished for pressing buttons
not really the same as buffering a ranged normal into a safe special that lets you start your own pressure string on block like yang would get.
sakura is super beastly. top 10 character. id have to check again but i dont think hers reaches as far.
anyway im not saying 3 frame lk by itself is way too good. im saying if you give him that + the old cross up or the old dive kick youre putting him in position to be in that best in the game conversation
this is also considering i think the current top 5-10 are going to get nerfed in typical capcom sf4 era rebalance fashion
Ok good points. To me what Yang needs now is really space control and the 3-frame st. lk would be ideal for it. He really doesn’t have any buttons now that you could buffer into rekka’s like Fei can and his buttons are much worse on top. A 4-frame st. lk would be enough for that imo though.
I still don’t get the people complaining about his divekick. It’s that way for a reason. He shuts down fireballs completely if he has his AE divekick. It’s just too good.
If there’s one thing they’re bringing back I think it’s the cross-up. It’s the most requested buff and Capcom likes to fix whatever people are whining about. I just don’t like him as an Oki-pressure character.
I’d just like more space control on the ground to complement his corner pressure gameplan.
Also about those Fei match-ups. I thought Rog and Rose were quite bad for Fei. Have those match-ups somehow changed recently?
Yea, the breaker did make some solid points. If that’s the case, then what do you feel is best for yang? All in all, he definitely needs one of those tools back. And if i had to choose, i would take the cross up. His mid range pressure atm is pretty weak and straightforward. So that would definitely even it out a bit.
rog is even on paper but i huuavent seen rog beat fei in a tourney or otherwise in like 2 years FWIW. then again nobody plays rog and i can name like at least 5 high level feis so IDK…
with rose, i still think fei wins. louffy beats feis from japan and europe tho. but i couldnt imagine it being worse than even
i think 3 frames is overkill and 5 is too slow to not just use cr.mk and have the same utility.
if i had to totally unbiased id say give him just the 3 frame lk. or 4 frame lk + either the old dive or old cross up.
id prefer the combo of 4 frame lk and cross up. his air game is really weak considering you cant cross up regularly outside of corners, and you have to be really careful about dive kicks.
being ground restricted would be ok if he had that dominant 3 frame far lk for when you end up having to block one of the games many -3ish type specials
if he got the defensive ground control and his air game got buffed with 3 frame lk and dive kick/cross up respectively, then he’s really stupid good.
St. Lk: 3 frames would be what I ideally want along with throw invincibility on his command grab.
I’m also the kind of person that wishes that mostly everything in a characters arsenal is usable in certain situations along with the other. So, I would like a way to see yangs super used more as I feel it is not even worth it in its current state as others just say use fadc instead. I don’t have any suggestions for how to make it better as I don’t know how that’s possible. But would be cool to see it be able to be a more viable option.
Another ridiculous offer is to make his command dash used more like how it was in 3rd strike. I remember what made me like Yang was seeing little intricacies like when K.O. would knock someone down, do slashes, and sometimes target combos, he would command dash to get better position and not get punished. I think it would be cool to be able to do that like slashes then lk, mk command dash to get a better position. I think it would also make the target combos more useful.
My divekick idea for 2013 as mentioned earlier in this forum.
-Raigekishu, divekick pressure is a great tool for closing gaps. however the extra +2 frames on recovery isn’t needed. Restoring the recovery back for 4 would give players who angle their divekicks properly for frametraps/mixup. As for the ceiling of the divekick. The stun is up for debate I don’t feel the stun should be restored, 100 stun is a lot and would greatly make the move strong. Removing the extra frames would be ideal but keeping the hurtbox on the divekick is something I don’t mind, which they put in AE.
Lastly, for palms. Removing the +2 extra frames on Light would be ideal, making fierce palm active as long as it was in AE is something I would like. This is just something I would like but anyone can share their ideas and thoughts. The extra frame on the feint palm is ridiculous, including strong. Make this a TOOL during seibu enbu combos. Similar with the light kick reducing the startup it would be ideal if Yang had more combos during seibu instead of what he currently has.
And in retrospect, -Zenpou Tenshin, It would be great giving this move some invincibility, I would not mind +3 frames of invincibility during EX and increase the active frames from 2~3. Increasing the meter gain would be great and encourage more players to use this tool. DO NOT SHRINK THE HITBOX.