<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Y’know, I always wondered how Kongoshin, one move in the game purpose built to be a reversal, pales so greatly in comparison to many of the reversals in the game! I mean, it’s awesome in theory and satisfying to pull off, but the reliability and vulnerability factors are too skewed towards the negative. In my opinion of course.</span></font>
Get rid of that piece of trash lp palm. Everyone who said it wasn’t a piece of trash was kidding themselves. Hp palm wasn’t brilliant, but it had some uses.<br><br>It’s not safe. - You can do true blockstrings, but those blockstrings end in the unsafe palm, so that is worthless against anyone with a 3 frame move<div>It’s not useful in combos - the corner combo with lp palm to U2 can be done with mp and hp palms, both giving more damage. There is absolutely no reason to use it there.</div><div><br></div><div>The only real use the move had was doing it from cl mk on certain characters. This is a safe blockstring then, against people with no 3f low. But you can probably be srk’d anyway. Long story short the move is trash.<br><br>Another thing I would like is jsut a bit of frame advantage on some of his other close normals. Make his jab faster or somehting, so he’s not just a complete joke up close.</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/49969/Politank-Z">Politank-Z</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Y’know, I always wondered how Kongoshin, one move in the game purpose built to be a reversal, pales so greatly in comparison to many of the reversals in the game! I mean, it’s awesome in theory and satisfying to pull off, but the reliability and vulnerability factors are too skewed towards the negative. In my opinion of course.</span></font></div>
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Making it counter armor break moves would be a stop closer to making it one
<div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”>While I agree current lp palm does not have alot of uses and is pretty much a mediocre move, I much rather have it then the old hp palm. That move also had very little use while being unsafe on block. </div><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”><br style=“box-sizing: border-box;”></div><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”>Current lp palm is pretty safe even being -4 because it pushes gouken back too far to be punished even by 3 or 4 frame normals. Very few things can punish it IIRC. What should be done with current lp palm is the hitbox in front needs to be longer. They added some range in ae 2012 but its not long enough. I try to buffer the move wiffing crlk to stop focus dash inners but the range suchs on lp palm and it usually wiffs. The best use for it right now IMO is meaty crlk xx lp palm and canceling it from standing mk and corner combo’s. Also once your juggling someone in the corner with gouken pain train once the body gets low enough the other palms are too slow to combo and thats when lp palm comes in handy. </div><div><br></div>
<font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;”>OK here my wishlist!:</span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>realistic wishes-</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>less pushback on close st mk</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>increase the Hitbox of cr lk</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-weight: normal;”>reduce the recovery of</span><b>:</b></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>far stand HK</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>all versions of kongo</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>demon flip grab</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>air tatsu</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>make far stand HK invulnerable to lows</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>grab changed from 5f-4f</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>less pushblock on cr lp</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>adjust the hitbox on tatsu ( so that it hits crouching opponents)</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>increase the speed of M,H,EX versions of senkugoshoha ( L version throw invincible)</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>increase tenmakujinkyaku’s damage </div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>increase walk back speed</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>reduce pushblock on L version senkugoshoha</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>cr Hp, close st mk and close st HK forces stand</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;”>now for the shit that would never happen…not to say any of my above wishes would would be </span><span style=“font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;”>implemented</span><span style=“font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;”> either lol</span></font></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>MAKE DENJIN UNBLOCKABLE like its 3rd strike counterpart</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>you can CANCEL DENJIN like abel’s breathless</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>the ability to cancel tenmakujikyaku into any version of tatsu</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>add an additional move to his demon flip</div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;”>increase the startup and hitbox of ultra 1( its not a real dependable AA and trade ultra 1 </span><span style=“font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;”>isn’t</span><span style=“font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;”> possible with gouken against crouching opponents it does work against some characters standing though)</span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;”>fireball cancelling like makoto hayate cancels lol</span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;”>well that’s all i got! but if they really made a version 2013 I NEED A THIRD ULTRA AND SECOND SUPER REALTALK!!!</span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;”> anyway it felt great posting this :) </span></font></div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/81727/QLJ86">QLJ86</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”>While I agree current lp palm does not have alot of uses and is pretty much a mediocre move, I much rather have it then the old hp palm. That move also had very little use while being unsafe on block. </div><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”><br style=“box-sizing: border-box;”></div><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”>Current lp palm is pretty safe even being -4 because it pushes gouken back too far to be punished even by 3 or 4 frame normals. Very few things can punish it IIRC. What should be done with current lp palm is the hitbox in front needs to be longer. They added some range in ae 2012 but its not long enough. I try to buffer the move wiffing crlk to stop focus dash inners but the range suchs on lp palm and it usually wiffs. The best use for it right now IMO is meaty crlk xx lp palm and canceling it from standing mk and corner combo’s. Also once your juggling someone in the corner with gouken pain train once the body gets low enough the other palms are too slow to combo and thats when lp palm comes in handy. </div><div><br></div></div>
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It’s not safe, not in any of the cases where it’s useful. Cl mk to lp palm is always unsafe vs people like bison or guy. They have the shortest 3f moves around. The push back might be enough for moves like cr mp to lp palm, or cr lk to lp palm at the max distance. But those pretty much never happen outside of little wakeup tricks, in which case sweep is always better.<br><br>I just told you it was worthless in the corner. The comboes from hadouken juggle can be done with other moves for more damage. The body shouldn’t get low enough if you do the combo properly. There is never a reason to do a combo where you need an lp palm, as it would just be unnessecary scaling and all that. For example, on all chars you can do ex senku, hp fp, hp palm, U2. This is much better than doing an lp palm there, which was one of the few uses people put there for it.<br><br>So again, the only real (not completely incorrect) use you have said for it is cr lk meat to palm, which is not really good. Meaty sweep is better if it hits, and just as safe.<br><br>The hp palm had at least a few garaunteed uses, 10 extra damage in standard ex senku combo, juggles off of air fireballs, and prediction palms through fireballs from long ranges.<br>The lp one has only one legitimate use , meaty cr lk to palm (I’ve told you why those other ones are bad) , and that’s not even that good. <div><br></div><div>It’s unsafe, yes, but so is lp palm in 90% of the cases where you use it. It’s never safe vs somone like cody btw, but he’s a rare case. If you play agasint someone who is experienced in the matchup, like an experienced bison player, even with his stubby little cr lk, you’ll see it can be punished most of the time. If you think ti’s not punishable it’s because you are playing bad players. You should not form an opinion on the usefullness of a move based on bad players not being able to punish it.</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/50502/Platypus">Platypus</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/81727/QLJ86">QLJ86</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”>While I agree current lp palm does not have alot of uses and is pretty much a mediocre move, I much rather have it then the old hp palm. That move also had very little use while being unsafe on block. </div><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”><br style=“box-sizing: border-box;”></div><div style=“box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0470588);”>Current lp palm is pretty safe even being -4 because it pushes gouken back too far to be punished even by 3 or 4 frame normals. Very few things can punish it IIRC. What should be done with current lp palm is the hitbox in front needs to be longer. They added some range in ae 2012 but its not long enough. I try to buffer the move wiffing crlk to stop focus dash inners but the range suchs on lp palm and it usually wiffs. The best use for it right now IMO is meaty crlk xx lp palm and canceling it from standing mk and corner combo’s. Also once your juggling someone in the corner with gouken pain train once the body gets low enough the other palms are too slow to combo and thats when lp palm comes in handy. </div><div><br></div></div>
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It’s not safe, not in any of the cases where it’s useful. Cl mk to lp palm is always unsafe vs people like bison or guy. They have the shortest 3f moves around. The push back might be enough for moves like cr mp to lp palm, or cr lk to lp palm at the max distance. But those pretty much never happen outside of little wakeup tricks, in which case sweep is always better.<br><br>I just told you it was worthless in the corner. The comboes from hadouken juggle can be done with other moves for more damage. The body shouldn’t get low enough if you do the combo properly. There is never a reason to do a combo where you need an lp palm, as it would just be unnessecary scaling and all that. For example, on all chars you can do ex senku, hp fp, hp palm, U2. This is much better than doing an lp palm there, which was one of the few uses people put there for it.<br><br>So again, the only real (not completely incorrect) use you have said for it is cr lk meat to palm, which is not really good. Meaty sweep is better if it hits, and just as safe.<br><br>The hp palm had at least a few garaunteed uses, 10 extra damage in standard ex senku combo, juggles off of air fireballs, and prediction palms through fireballs from long ranges.<br>The lp one has only one legitimate use , meaty cr lk to palm (I’ve told you why those other ones are bad) , and that’s not even that good. <div><br></div><div>It’s unsafe, yes, but so is lp palm in 90% of the cases where you use it. It’s never safe vs somone like cody btw, but he’s a rare case. If you play agasint someone who is experienced in the matchup, like an experienced bison player, even with his stubby little cr lk, you’ll see it can be punished most of the time. If you think ti’s not punishable it’s because you are playing bad players. You should not form an opinion on the usefullness of a move based on bad players not being able to punish it.</div></div>
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Well hmmm I may be wrong lol. I will do some testing but I was under the impression that it was safe most of the time besides like 2 frame supers and such because of the push back. I wound not say im playing bad players but they are just not experience in fighting gouken I mean he is a rare character. Its also -4 so you kinda have to be spot on to punish correctly so you may get away with it even with good player which I have many times. Either way I agree the move is mediocre and I know there are better combo’s in the corner. I was just naming its uses. The only way Id want hp palm back is if they rework the invincible frames like I listed in my balance request post.
some similar shit is possible
Vs c viper off jmp I just saw this up a couple days ago too…
I don’t know whats going on in this thread but for whoever thinks lp palm is useless is not using it correctly. Yes, cr.lk, lp palm is A use but I mostly use it raw. It blows up 90% of the cast meterless. If they do anything but block they get hit… its a special move and beats out all normals. Even if the opponent has meter you can still use it and just fadc if blocked into throw or frame traps. It nullifies all backdashes minus Rose I believe AND is armor breaking so can’t be focused. Not to mention if your opponent is within the 3-4% hp range you can gf kick, cl.st.mk, lp palm for chip out…5-6% hp you can fadc that and do another cl.st.mk, lp palm and for 6-8% hp cancel into super. I could name countless more…
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/29562/DEK09">DEK09</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I don’t know whats going on in this thread but for whoever thinks lp palm is useless is not using it correctly. Yes, cr.lk, lp palm is A use but I mostly use it raw. It blows up 90% of the cast meterless. If they do anything but block they get hit… its a special move and beats out all normals. Even if the opponent has meter you can still use it and just fadc if blocked into throw or frame traps. It nullifies all backdashes minus Rose I believe AND is armor breaking so can’t be focused. Not to mention if your opponent is within the 3-4% hp range you can gf kick, cl.st.mk, lp palm for chip out…5-6% hp you can fadc that and do another cl.st.mk, lp palm and for 6-8% hp cancel into super. I could name countless more…</div>
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Yes I forgot about that. Ive chiped people out alot using close st mk to lp palm.
<font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Hey guys, I like a lot of your suggestions, and they reflect mine very well</span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>Please forward this to Ono, everybody</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>1. Normal Kongo 400 stun damage</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>2. LP Palm 100 damage, and more push-back on block, 2% faster <span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 22.65625px;”>:-B</span></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>2. HP Palm 140 damage, 4% faster </div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>3. EX Palm 160 damage, 6% faster <span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>:-@</span></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><div><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>4. Cl. HP 120 damage</span></div><div><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>4. Cr. HP 100 damage</span></div></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>5. Cl. HP->any Tatsu to work on all characters as a BnB-combo</span><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>5. All Tatsumakis to lock the opponent</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>6. 2 frames faster start-up on EX Hado</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>6. Faster release/ start-up on Denjin! </span><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>:-S</span></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>7. More frame advantage on either cr. MP or cr. LK, so when followed up with cr. HK, you have a better chance of striking first</div><div>7. Maybe 3-frame start-up on back-throw, since there’s damage scaling<br><br><br></div>
=D>
Denjin makes Gouken completely hit invincible while charging all the way up to the 8 hit level<br>
Denjin should be able to be fadc out of startup or by super alone Should cancel to super during stArtup using denjin as a bait
<p>Change nothing. Infiltration proved, by beating Dieminion’s Guile, that it’s how you play Gouken which will, ultimately, decide the outcome of a fight. He has the tools to beat every character. End of.</p><p>(Master Gouken shakes head) “You have much training ahead of you.”</p><p>(Rises along with Master Gouken and walks off)…</p>
Uh… It’s my belief that Infiltration proved nothing except that Gouken is not THAT bad.
Yes, he is beastly with Gouken, but only uses him in certain matchups, and most players are not familiar with Gouken’s advanced playstyle.
Kick buttons give us three additional fireball options…Possible options: one mimics Ryu’s fast fireball, one mimics Guile’s slow boom, one acts like Dan’s or Oni’s with super fast startup and recovery(for deception/close combos). Ex kick fireball that has the same properties as Akuma’s 3 hit red hado or Ryu’s 2 hit red hado.
Can combo into U1 after any palm in corner
Increase lower range of hit box for f.st.hp to catch sweep fishing
Jab hits further
Current f.st.mk becomes forward + mk, current cl.st.mk is standard with improved hitbox and combo options
They just announced the SF4 update is coming. Come on Capcom, we got an input glitch that needs to disappear 