About MSP

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
1

I’m beginning to think that MSP is not a god tier team, but just a high tier team. I just think that people played it so much that by popularity it’s thought of as god tier. Just for reference, I think Santhrax/Matrix is god tier.

I think people just think that MSP is a god tier team because of how marvel developed throughout the years: MSP countered the fuck out of early players who used Cable, and has a chance against santhrax if you catch them slipping. It’s easier to gamble with MSP as an inferior player against santhrax than to mirror match santhrax where your chances of winning plummet. I believe these to be significant contributing factors.

But otherwise it’s widely used and because it’s popular to watch, and for awhile had Yipes backing it so it was entertaining and looked promising. But I don’t think people really understand how long Yipes had been playing for and how great of a player he is; they forget this and credit MSP as being god tier, when I think it’s really not the case.

MSP has some really bad matchups, and generally starts most matches off at a disadvantage. MSP only has one GOOD matchup, and that’s against MSS which MSP is like 6/7 to 4/3 to win. Otherwise, even the best “most often seen matchup” santhrax vs msp is like 6-4 at least in santhrax’s favor.

There are a lot of misconceptions about MSP… like MSP touches you once and you’re done, which is totally not true. You really need to land at least 2-3 clean hits to win as MSP, and even then, maybe not.

In fact the opposite is true: You touch MSP once, and it’s done. Seriously. Either Magneto is dead, or psylocke got destroyed and it’s a completely one sided uphill battle.

You can’t countercall well with MSP, you really only have one “big combo” which is unmashable temptest with psylocke, and maybe frame kill hailstorm. There’s not much else to write about.

With marvel the way it currently is, there are too many ways to do “bullshit damage” through frame kills, meter whorage, and other strategies, where it’s to just “trade hits” with MSP or focus on killing one character (any one will really gimp MSP), and then it’s over for MSP. MSP can’t runaway well, and really only has one option: rush. At a high level, you rush at a disadvantage, and really have to try to outplay the other player.

In fact, if it wasn’t for MSP’s dominance over MSS, I would say that MSS is better overall and has better matchups than MSP, which is just way too fragile. MSP can’t take a hit, has to have things go completely their way, can’t trade, fights an uphill battle when down, and has a difficult time making a comeback - especially since magneto is first in MSP and usually gets killed.

I don’t even think that resetting is the problem or being able to get a reset. I’m talking about the core fundamentals of the team. But I am curious to see what other people think.

2

um… i see no one has responded to this. But let me be the first. Um… WHAT?

Recently i saw a guy playin Omega Red on godtier level. I believe it was yipes13 on zachd’s japanese evo footage. omega/hood/juggy i believe - and that was against top tiers. Clearly it is the person playing and not the chatacters. Magneto is dangerous even in the hands of a beginner MSP player. Storm takes more time but I have seen and had my own comebacks with just Storm/Psy. This argument already happened about 2 years ago. Then Yipes won SB2. Then Schmidt won SB3 with MSP. If it isn’t a God tier team then i don’t know what is. They have huge holes in their defense being made of paper. But the offensive capabilities of the team more than make up for it. And a good MSP player will not just rush. its about mind games, tricks, runaway. I think MSP is more of a thinking team. Because if you are even just one step ahead of your opponent then you certainly have a huge advantage.

3

You do realize you just reinforced my point?

So two people do well with MSP, both of which are good players who will do well with other teams… just like Yipes moving on to play ROW and doing just as well if not better.

I think you’re forgetting about all the other MSPs who flat out get raped or destroyed so they don’t even show up in finals.

4

i was only speaking about tourney results backing the potential of MSP. there are many a MSP out there that can destroy. lets see Soo, Demon, Sanford, Justin, Potter, Fanatiq, Beats… There are plenty of sucky MSP’s out there… but that doesn’t mean that the team is any less fearsome or any worse than any other team out there. Sure Matrix, ROW, and Santhrax are solid teams. However i’ve beat down many a team like that with MSP. And 3 clean hits is not hard to get. I had to learn the lesson of branching out and playing other teams just like Yipes. But having a decent MSP in your pocket to pull out is always nice. Don’t forget… Justin Wong almost got taken straight out of a tourney once by a random MSP player in pools. Do you play MSP?

5

Yes I play MSP, but again those issues I brought up are still there.

For example, you double snap santhrax and then kill commando. MSP has a GOOD chance of winning at that point.

However, if Santhrax kills any one character from MSP, Santhrax has a GREAT chance of winning. Same with any other team, except combofiend* which is a suck out team anyway, but I digress.

And about JWong… just look at his comeback vs yipe’s MSP. And how about when JWong went and played Finesse in Cali, Jwong’s MSP vs Santhrax, and it was like 7-10 loss for Jwong.

Let’s look at “good” MSP gameplay.

  1. Lands a snap (opponent made a huge mistake)
  2. Successfully anticipates/performs guardbreak (opponent makes small mistake)
  3. Successfully resets/5 fierce opponent (transitional step)
  4. Opponent blocks wrong way (another mistake)
  5. 1 character now dead
  6. Incoming next character, did you guardbreak? (opponent makes small mistake)
    …

So just to kill one character the guy you’re playing really has to make 3-4 mistakes.

6

i always wondered about that win. i couldn’t imagine Justin would lose 7-10 against Finesse with his Matrix and other solid teams.

3-4 mistakes eh? well lets see…

Double snaps are “setupable” as i’ve realized more and more. i.e. trijump lk lk reset with another trijump lk lk giving time for the assist to come out and get stuffed call Psy or land lk c.jab double snap. but i’ll give you that

Good guardbreaks are nigh inescapable but i’m flexible so i agree with you there

now how you deal with the assist from that point is purely up to the player. I’m more of a do what works person. i try to do as few resets as possible to an unmashable tempest or dhc to storm. I do that with the point character sometimes if the whole team is solid.

So you’re right with the mistake thing. But mags is so Random and so is Psy. Believe me i’ve heard and hear the complaints everytime my Marvel buddies get together. I still put MSP up there against any team in Marvel and say they have a good chance in the right hands.

lets look at more pro’s

  1. MSP has the most chance to perfect someone
  2. Best chance to OCV
  3. Storm can dominate the game especially with Psy and no Mags
  4. One hit potential exists
  5. Constant rushdown must be respected

they Are that deal. too bad there are a lot of sucky inexperienced MSPs out there including mine. I need to play more top players on a regular basis. They are my main team for a reason. But i do have a decent Santhrax, my RevRow is coming along. and i think i like MSS drones.

i guess everyone has their opinion. the bottom line is you have to do what works for you. Yipes didn’t listen to anyone when they said MSP wouldn’t win a tourney. and he also didnt stop growing as a player. either way it goes MSP cannot be underestimated … god tier or not.

7

exactly.

Aside from becoming predictable (which will get you killed with any team), this is totally avoidable with a single push block.

This only really applies against Sentinel who can barely escape (10-20% chance?) the sj lk hk air dash forward lp dlk mp mk setup. Every other character can randomly push block (or not) and do super or anti air to escape, boosting it to like a 30-40% chance.

Good.

The better you get, you’ll realize, Mags is anything but random. There’s a difference between “random” and playing to suck out, aka gamble, which I can see people seeing as “random”.

#1 and #2 aren’t necessary factors to win. Those are just “flashy” elements that add to a win. #3… Storm/psylocke duo is one of the weakest duos in the game, and gets raped by Sentinel+AA. You could say #4 is nice, but it applies to almost every other team in the game… if you let santhrax get one good hit on you it’s over… row, it’s over, mss it’s over… see what i mean?

As for #5, it gets a section all on it’s own. If you look at how good MSP players play they actually rush in bursts. There is no constant rushdown. If you look at Yipes for example, he seldom rushes in until there is something for him to react to. He’ll play very very safe until the opponent makes a mistake or he herds the opponent into the corner, for example.

MSP is fun to play, and is one of my favorite teams. However, again, I must point out that yipes does just as good, if not better, with row than with MSP. And you have to realize that marvel is a game that continually changes it’s metagame and developement. There are too many retarded ways to counter MSP now. Just think for example, how ridiculous it was for jwong to counter yipes with… STORM SENTINEL PSYLOCKE???

8

That was hilarious how Jwong out-thought yipes at SB3… that was Classic!!!

so you are dropping MSP off god tier essentially in your book. I can respect that. Thats how marvel keeps on evolving somehow. people with different ideas about how the game should be played. so why do you have so much red!?

9

MSP is my favorite team, I just don’t think it’s god tier. It’s BEYOND god tier if you play a person lower than your skill level though, however.

I’m in the red because I say things that aren’t necessarily popular and I don’t suck up to anyone.

In specific, I was writing in reference to the latest jwong comeback against j360, which showed how far training mode IM can take a crappy player.

10

I haven’t seen that comeback. Where would i go to check out that wong vs j360?

11

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12

…

I think you have to say MSP is god tier when the team has 2/3 gods… plus one of the best assists in the game… however it is certainly not as good overall as thrax, row, and a few other teams… all that being said… MSP I’ve always felt is more like testing your opponent’s skill than your own.

Beating MSP is much easier than other god teams tho… take out psy and mags has a much harder time… and most storms just run away if psy drops… but that doesn’t help her if she is behind a character.

MSP seems like you either dominate or get wasted… not a lot of grind it out/wear em down which sent, storm, and cable are all very good at doing when things go sour initially…

MSP is a god tier team and CAN be good enough to be the best of the best… they just don’t do it as consistently. Not really new argument here… people have long said sent/storm blows away mags/psy as a combo… and that has largely been proven true.

13

Well you pretty much just gave 1000 reasons why MSP is NOT god tier, and the only reason you gave for it to be god tier is because it has 2 gods in it and a good assist.

14

Nah… I just gave reasons why it not as good as some other teams… I still think it’s good enough to be called god tier… not that it matters what it’s called… MSP has a lot of potential and can beat anyone. If someone is playing MSP and thinking to themself that they aren’t playing god team, OP team, or wtver… then they are delusional. MSP is “god tier” for what it’s worth. Unlike sent/storm/cable or cable/wtver/capcom… it’s not an utterly mindless team… takes a lot of work to get the most out of it… but it has a lot more potential than jump back grenade… beam, jump back grenade… beam, call capcom, jump back grenade… beam… there is a magic to mags/psy that is truly godlike.

15

There’s no mindless play at top level. There’s rinse wash repeat tactics for sure, but it’s kinda like the hailstorm thread-- nothing’s really random when you go out of your way to input the motion.

16

.

Mindless is the wrong word… but the point is that while cable/capcom or sent/capcom teams are based on a strategy that while being VERY good… is much less adaptable and option filled than a mags/psy team… which has a couple dozen ways to cross you up and 1 hit kill you… mags/psy can also be much less predictable given all the angles mags can take advantage of…

If all players had average skill… you could say msp isn’t god tier… but considering some people will master stuff to a lvl beyond… i think you can get more out of msp if you get to that higher skill lvl.

17

Wrong. MSP is the only team in the game that scales backwards once you get past a certain point.

If you keep up with the way marvel has developed, MSP is just not competitive enough. It’s a high tier team, but god tier? No. Even if we use your comparison, it’s “not as good as the others.” so what you wanna say instead it’s the shittiest of the god tier? Fine by me.

The better you get at the game the more limited you’ll realize MSP is. And no, there are not a dozen ways to cross up with psylocke and win (or reset, mixup etc.)

I used to think that MSP was a god tier team. I used to think stuff like, “well santhrax has DHC of doom, and MSP has it’s own unmashable temptest to hailstorm as well PLUS RESETS AND SNAPS!” but the truth is santhrax will never need to snap you, because they will kill you off of one hit. And MSP’s own DHC of doom relies on psylocke to combo into it, unlike Santhrax which just relies on a 2 hit confirm…

Santhrax fights at an advantage in almost every matchup, unlike MSP which fights at a disadvantage at almost every matchup (except against MSS for the first 20 seconds of gameplay at which it completely reverses) MSP is one of the only teams where the opponent can make like 4-5 small mistakes in a row and get away with minimal loss. MSP absolutely must have a clean hit (plus a few more) or it absolutely cannot do any real damage.

And even then clean hits are often punished with a snap out, in hopes of a successful guardbreak to do any real damage.

18

…

This is a dumb argument to be having really… given that it is over a label… but all that aside msp has won major tournements. Against the best players using the best teams. That alone makes it whatever could be called “god tier”.

Not that it matters. It’s a very good team. IMHO not as good as thrax or a couple others… but player skill and adaptability have given it some good success. Whats the difference?

I certainly don’t agree that msp gets worse with time and practice. A crappy or even average msp is sooo much easier to deal with than a really good one. Most people can speak from experiance on that one.

19

S/D has won major tournaments that doesn’t mean it’s a god tier team. Duc has won a major tournament does that mean spiral is god tier?

I mean really… you agree that MSP is lacking compared to other teams, but then somehow disagree that it’s not on the same level.

ANd you totally missed the point about player skill…

20

I agree that IFC Yipes carry MSP a little, this player has perfect execution, do well with almost every good team in the game. He was a monster at SBIII playing with Rowtron, can sometimes match Sanford with Santhrax and played a lot of great matches with IM in casuals (few years ago).