In my opinion Ryu and Sagat are both 5-5s… then Abel goes even or better with everybody else outside of high tier except Fei Long. so, he’s high tier.
Every time you knock someone down as Abel, you have so many wake-up options if everything works out properly you should get a very good chance of getting another knockdown with little risk to yourself.
And the jab thing… you need to know when your have the frames you need to do what you want. If your jab was blocked, then a F+MK is out of the question, but a tornado throw is not. If they try and jab out of your tick throws, it should be a free TT for you. don’t even have to use EX. After a F+MK with the right timing, no one should be able to normal throw, jab or jump out of your s.fp… Abel can deal with all this
A good player will realize that his jab is screwing him over and change to doing something else, and then you can pick it up some more
Abel isn’t bothered by fireball zoning and Sagat’s footsies are poor… you can safe jump his TU and roll out of safe tiger knee traps, sometimes. You can stuff his standing roundhouse with a jump in jab so unless the Sagat has his F+RH karas down it is easy to close to distance against Sagat. He soaks up a lot of damage, but Abel does a ton of damage so it all works out. He has a 3 frame jab but it is a 1 frame link into itself, so he has no safe way of getting out pressure unless he can FADC an uppercut.
Of the two, Ryu is probably the harder match. IMO.
His short is good pressure and easy to combo, and fireballs can still tear you up pretty bad in certain situations (full screen, no ultra).
I have a much easier time with ryu, which might just be because I have a lot more practice against him, but…yeah.
All this stuff is really subjective though. I haven’t had a huge amount of trouble against zangief, cause one of the main people I used to practice with used only gief, so I’m used to it.
Maybe I just need more time against some good sagats.
FFS, This is about BALANCE not what is or is not WINNABLE, 5-5 is BALANCED anything else is UNBALANCED. When Abel goes 5-5 with the entire cast he will be BALANCED. That’s irrefutable logic stop telling Us “it isn’t so”.
The point to this thread is to discuss how to BALANCE Abel, As you are supposed to be one of the better Abels out there, maybe you should get your head out of the sand & use your experience to contribute to the thread at hand instead of “BE PATIENT AND BLOCK A LOT” Anyone who has played Abel for a while knows how the character works (no priority, no safe moves, no GTFO move, sure as hell doesn’t leave many options other than “BE PATIENT AND BLOCK A LOT” it’s not rocket science). For the record I AM PATIENT, I BLOCK A LOT & when I play better I expect to win not lose 3-7.
It is subjective for sure, I kind of go against the grain but I dunno. Unlike a lot of characters, as Abel you don’t have to worry about overcoming matchup issues when playing Sagat… compared to say, Honda, who IMO is otherwise even in the tiers with Abel
This is an asymmetrical game at its core… every possible match up could never be 5-5. Juice already said his piece. Even a tiny buff for Abel, like a faster jab, could make him OP. If you actually learn how to play the character, you figure out how to make your offense safe. Abel has some high priority moves, try standing far lk, standing far mp, F+MK sometime. He is not the only character in the game without a really good reversal, but with the options he has you can still get out of most situations.
And I’d say be patient and block a lot… at first. Once you are in, stay there and go full speed.
You make some good points but like i said this thread is about Balancing Abel not stating the bleeding obvious. I’ve been playing Abel since Day 1 so I know his options, I also know he has too many 4-6 matches & worse to be called Balanced. If a faster jab would make Abel overpowered then maybe other moves could be tweeked to compensate. These are the things that the better players like juicebox should be discussing not just swanning in here & blabbing about how f**king winnable everything is, 1-9 is winnable but that shit’s not balanced
why post crap like “If you actually learn how to play the character”, that’s the mother of all f**kups right there, every possible match up could never be 5-5 (obviously) but they can be improved.
A character composed of nothing other than 5-5s and 4-6/6-4s is balanced, imo. Not saying that’s Abel, but balanced is not necessarily 5-5.
Man, I’m digging that EX skyfall idea. Can you imagine f.fwd, link st.HP, CoD FADC, cr.HP launcher, EX skyfall, then finish with normal skyfall or else cr.HP (only the second hit catches him) to ultra? Too sick. And if said ultra combo did less than just doing it after the first cr.HP (which it probably would, since that’s how the damage scaling works), it’d be just for show. If you didn’t have ultra, you could burn one EX to get a cooler combo that ends in normal skyfall for wakeup games, or st.HP for reset games.
It wouldn’t exactly change Abel’s game, because he already makes people hurt when he’s landing the first half of that combo. It would just look so cool. It would mean that EX skyfall couldn’t be a better anti-air than it is now, though. Otherwise, free ultra, or else TWO skyfalls worth of damage and a reset off any anti-air. Too good.
As for actual buffs, I don’t really know. I like the idea of CoD being unsafe on block if you go first high and second high (and you can’t reversal in between), or you could go first high and second low as safe on block, but you can reversal in between as you do now. I think this was suggested in a previous Abel for Dash thread.
Virtually every offensive rushdown character can make you hurt off a low jab or low short, too. Abel, not as much… I don’t know what you can do to help this. If you make st.MP cancelable, then you can do this. Too good?
I really like f.fwd standing up on hit. Frame data on the TTs is good.
Alright then he is balanced. Leave him as is, thanks
well… make his hitbox when sweeping shorter so that he will duck lariat clean at all times, and give him a little bit more frame advantage off of standing far lk
I’m sorry but I’m not buying this, not only if he makes the wrong choice will be be royally screwed (straight jumping against a TT attempt for example) his options aren’t any better than any of the other character out there. In fact I’d wager he’s weaker than quite a few than to the lack of a genuine reversal attack. A shoryuken is going to be him out unless he’s blocking, his “vortex” is only easy against players who let themselves be predictable. Very few players experienced against Abel would allow themselves to be.
Beyond that saying Abel’s top tear already is a little silly. I’d wager a main reason Abel does wellish against the top characters is because whoever’s playing them don’t have a clue how to fight a good Abel, I think the WCG match between Juicebox and the Sagat he was going against was a good example of this. Needless to say if Abel were as good as you two think he is, why isn’t he pulling in more wins at tournaments? Not that I think he should be changed too much but saying things like his hitboxes shouldn’t be fixed is ludicrous, especially in a lot of the cases where the problem pops up Abel already has a pretty hideous fighter (Akuma for example)
I dont follow every tournament in the world, but i’ve seen winning Abels in a couple… hell i dont see as much of Chun, Boxers and dictators winning(i know there are some). I think he’s just not as popular as other characters and he demands a different kind of execution.
I think we ALL agree Abel does’nt need alot of work…thats cuz he that good now. NO one should play predictable, if a someone keeps jumping or spamming in im gonna have to adapt and punish properly. Getting careless vs Abel is a big deal too, even for shotos and Sagat, one fuck-up he he gets to do BIG damage and has one of the best Ultras in the game, thats why so many match-ups are so close/equal for him.
Totally voting for bouncing EX Falling Sky. That would be champion. I don’t want too many buffs for Abel because I don’t want everybody and their mother picking him up. All of this “make f.mk->s.hp easier to do” is a terrible idea. It seems like a lot of suggestions are for things that people are just too lazy to learn how to deal with. I’m by no means an expert Abel player but I enjoy having that awesome factor when I beat somebody down and they had no idea Abel was that nutso, since they don’t find very many full time Abel players.
I will say though, that I think improving CoD’s low hits would be a good idea. Also the whole c.hp whiff thing is a pain in the ass so if I think if it connects you should always get both hits (at relatively point blank). I really hope they don’t decrease TT damage though. It’s way risky to do and you deserve a big pay off if you can get it off.
Mago thought Abel was the 5th best character in the game… that is being a little generous I think. Top third of the cast though, for sure.
Holding up does not beat Abel… play Strider and you see what happens. You get hit by a bunch of low shorts, then a jab, then a F+MK lands, then the st.fp combo happens, and even with no meter he just did 25% damage to you. If someone never stops jumping out, you can hit them with all kinds of shit as a result.
On wakeup, TT isn’t the only option… you can jump in with st.fp to punish jumps and back dashes, and if they block, you get massive frame advantage to start a mix up. If you have the safe jump timing down for this, you are golden. Cross up with j.mk to safe jump shoryus… throw out a meaty low short or jab to tick if they block or block & punish if they do a slow reversal… then there is close roundhouse, close strong, etc.
It is tempting to always try and land tornado throws but Abel can do just fine without it. Some matchups you get to land a ton of them… other match ups you don’t, and you just have to save it and use it once a match or round when they forget about it. Then there is Abel’s unique strength… he’s the only character who can bait & punish FADC uppercuts from everyone. People aren’t likely to tech a throw against him, so you can tick into a short roll and their reversal uppercut will fly off into space with no change to cancel.
YES. I don’t understand why most people are against this. Obviously, the game will never be all 5-5’s, but why not try to improve it???
4-6’s a fairly balanced, but not completely balanced. Just getting a character up to 4-6 and calling it a day is not the right move. Seeing as Abel has 4 against about a third of the cast, I’d say he still needs a little work, not a huge amount, but just a little something here or there.
If Abel was 4-6 against Zangief, but 6-4 against Ken.
How to you buff Abel to get him at 5-5 with Zangief, without making him completely overpowered against Ken?
The true way to balance any game is to spend a lot of time doing minor adjustments to the absolute bottom tier in order to bring them up.
There will always be good match-ups and bad match-ups due to the fact that different characters have different play-styles which work differently against other characters with different play-styles.
Balancing isn’t as simple as it seems on the surface.
That isn’t irrefutable logic, I question whether you know the meaning of either word.
An even array of 4-6, 5-5 and 6-4 matchups could very well be balanced, assuming the rest of the cast was similar.
This is a rock/paper/scissors style game, it is supposed to have uneven matchups.
The goal is not to have every matchup be 5-5.
SFIV is remarkably well balanced, we see this in a healthy tournament scene with an array of different characters. The low tier characters can even win tournaments, they just have poorer chances overall.
The goal in SSFIV is to have as few 7-3 matchups as possible and to have foils for the top tier character. That’s easier said than done of course.
You ask yourself why he’s 4-6 against Zangief, but 6-4 against Ken. If the reasons are independent of each other, then you can safely adjust the two match-ups. It’s not impossible.
It’s not easy. But, it’s not impossible.
Having said that, I think many of Abel’s problems lie beyond his own moveset. I think once the higher tiered characters get put on a leash, then Abel will automatically be balanced by default.
I believe in the opposite. You can easily lose the charm of a Sakura or Vega by beefing the heck out of their moves and giving them more options. Soon, some of their charming, fun options become useless because a new easier option has been added.
Instead, I think the higher tier characters should be made less braindead easy, and made more “charming”. Tone down the upper tiers, and make them require as much finesse and ingenuity as the lower tiers. Makes every one more fun/complex.
It’s all very well someone ranking him near top in their tear list, but then again why isn’t he winning more? Why’s he one of the lowest ranked arcade characters in regards to wins?
I never said holding up meant instant win. I said holding up would beat TT and allow them to hit their most powerful combo whilst he’s recovering. However what you said about his jabs, more so the f.mk>c.hp it’s never going to work on somebody who knows how to fight Able. The mk needs to hit on counter for the c.hp to hit, three jabs is a really obvious tell on the mk, they’ll reverse or block it. It’s a guessing game and Abel’s on even footing if not at an advantage. His only option on an opponents wake-up are standing meaty normals, overhead, a TT or blocking, a lot of characters have very similar option, in fact most of the top tier have all of those things minus the TT but have a reversal attack to make up for it.
I’m not saying his wake-up’s bad, but it’s not exceptional amongst the cast like you’re making it out to be. In fact I’d say that the lack of a reversal into FACD makes it work than most of the top tiers wake-up games because he’s got nothing that’s completely safe and offers a free getaway.
Again, my oki game is fine. I have zero problems with that. The issue is from a neutral state, it’s stupid hard to press an advantage against somebody with 3f jabs that randomly snakes them out.
Unless I’m reading what you wrote wrong and are saying just tick into TT until they stop. The problem is getting within range and being able to throw out a TT after a tick without them stuffing it with a 3f jab. Especially when TT is 5f start-up. EX is one of the only ways I can think of to deal with it outside of backdashing and attempting to punish. Close s.hp is solid against say, Rog, but not against Dictator who ducks underneath it. Since not everybody gets hit by close s.hp, they can mash out of his junk.
In those situations, if you guess right, you’re good. If you guess wrong, you’re screwed. It comes down to how good you are at flipping coins it seems.
I’ll try to explain myself better when I get back from work
