720s FTW! (T-Hawk thread)

[RagingStormX]

I am not sure that is correct. If the 360 has zero frame start up, unless you are doing a move that is considered air based,(jumping or flagged as “in air” IE f.forward with Fei) and you are in 360 range, the invincibility frames in the 360 will go through the meaty attack and the 360 would grab the character out of there move. Hence, reversal 360. The whiff animation would never play because a whiff never occurred. The opponent meets all the requirements for being thrown by the 360. The whiff only occurs when Hawk is out of range or when the opponent is not in a special throw-able state. The block would only occur if input was incorrectly executed. Nothing would happen cause the motion was not completed so the negative edge would result in nothing defaulting to the next available action which is blocking. (seeing as that is the last direction being held.)

This technique is not a catch all for meaty attacks, It can’t be used against jump-ins for instance, but more of a safe technique for ground based meaty attacks.

I could be wrong but this is what I gather…

Again this is all based on the idea that the 360 is in fact a zero frame start up move, which to my knowledge, seems to be the case. If that is not the case you can default to safe reversal of the SRK which certainly has zero frame start and invincibility and can be executed as a safe reversal.

Is all this input worth the reward, yes and no. The safe reversal SRK is hard to do, but if you can get it right every time, then you negate some of the advantage of the meaty attack. If you successfully get the knockdown wake up shinanigans ensue. if you don’t, you block and try not to get tricked into silly stuff.

No ground normals are considered airborne and 360 is not invincible. 360s are instant which is why they grab if you are in range, only invincible/airborne moves won’t get grabbed or if they arent in range.

[gridman]

I just tried it. If its a poorly timed meaty, you dont need a reversal. If its timed really well (like a feis cl.fierce would be or something like that), then you need a reversal.

raging you’re telling me feis f.mk isnt airborne as well as his f.rh? i always thought they were…i mean he does go off the ground in each and it never seemed like you could throw either of them

[HAMMER_FRENZY]

No ground normals are considered airborne and 360 is not invincible. 360s are instant which is why they grab if you are in range, only invincible/airborne moves won’t get grabbed or if they arent in range.

Okay, let me get this right, There is no invincible frames in the 360, but it will grab someone out of their hitting frames, wouldn’t this mean that at the very least, the 0 frame where it grabs would have to be invincible? Otherwise the hitting frames of the attack being grabbed would have to play out.

Hmmmm

[MURPHAGATOR]

I’m aware of that, my point was you shouldn’t be able to option select it anymore, since if they do something that you can’t throw, you’d get a throw wiff instead of nothing.

Was your point that you’d get nothing if you failed the correct reversal timing? Because if thats what you were getting at, then yea, it’d work, just the same as feis reversal with his SRK.

[HAMMER_FRENZY]

Yes that is exactly what I was saying. If you know they wont throw a move you can’t throw them out of, then it is good to do the safe reversal

[caliagent_3]

raging you’re telling me feis f.mk isnt airborne as well as his f.rh? i always thought they were…i mean he does go off the ground in each and it never seemed like you could throw either of them

both are airborne

[F.D.K]

Anybody else want to make a petition for Hawk Dive to cause knockdown? =)

side note: I have grabbed Guile out of his F. Roundhouse. Not Airborne! It looks like it. Don’t be deceived! It used to have the property of going over crouching attacks. Not any more with the update. It’s considered a Ground move. It does however, hit crouching opponent. Fei Long’s F. Forward… now that’s an overhead. I’ve seen it go over my crouching forward. =( No grab for me out of it.

[gridman]

i should have said it earlier but the meaties i did try were ryus close fp, cr.strong, cr.forward and feis c.fp (i only got this one a few times, its pretty tough)

[Moe_Powell]

well i stand corrected then.

[RagingStormX]

both are airborne

Im sure they can be thrown, Ill test it out or ask NKI. I swear I heard no normals in ST are actually considered airborne. I could very well be wrong, but Ill find out for sure.

[margalis]

On another note, anyone besides me trying to safe reversal meaties? it works for me, (another reason that I suspect the 360 of having 0 frame start up) I am negative edging 360’s on wake up ending in back or down back to option select the best outcome. Unless they jump or DP/flame kick/ etc, you either get reversal 360 or block.

Ending in d/b helps if you press the buttons too early or too late but isn’t safe in the same way it used to be not that it has the whiff animation. I get what you are saying but it’s worded a bit confusingly.

[neoKEN]

I was browsing sirlin.net and I saw this.

Other Problems

T.Hawk had so much trouble beating Honda and Guile I tried all sorts of things, like alternate versions of the hawk dive and block damage on his roundhouse, as you can see in the bullet point list above. I don?t think any of these things really worked out. Some had technical problems, some caused more balance problems in other areas, and some just felt strange. In the end, I reverted lots of that stuff. **Instead, I just ?tried harder? to win the matches against Guile and Honda and I was able to develop some techniques. **These fights are hard, but I think they are winnable.

Conclusion
You might argue that T.Hawk is even worse now than the original game because the deadly throw loop has been removed (throw whiff means it?s escapable now). But the flipside is that T.Hawk doesn?t have to be all-or-nothing anymore. He can mostly get in with the new dive, so getting in doesn?t need to lead to instant checkmate. He does have trouble against defensive characters like Guile and Honda, but these matches are more winnable than before. In other matches, he?s more well-rounded. His gameplay is more ?interactive? now and less based on perfectly executing a throw loop, so this makes fighting him more fun. And when all is said and done, I hope players will find him more effective than he was in ST, just not game-breakingly so.

–Sirlin

Does Sirlin know something that I’m not reading here? If so I would like to know too.

[Logos]

Yeah man, we’re just not trying hard enough. If you want something badly enough, you can get it (apparently). :rolleyes:

[F.D.K]

Save the trouble of “trying harder” and go do what I did…

seller’s voice Are you tired of using “desperate” ways to beat you’re opponent, when you know it’s in you’re favor? Want to increase your chances by 100% and nail that super at any time? If you answered “YES” to any of these questions, then what you need to do is…

!! BUY YOURSELF A TOTEM!!!

Finally, you’ll be the one saying:

“My Totem is too great for YOUR desperate fighting techniques”

restrictions applies, you’re results will vary. Totem’s are hereby not responsible for whiffed 720"s

[FreshOJ]

^^ nice

[gridman]

a strong guile/honda doesnt lose to a strong hawk. it just doesnt happen. hawk has to get lucky, real lucky.

[Nos99]

Who do Hawk WIN against? What matchups are actually in his favour?

[gridman]

dictator 6-4 hawk
fei 7-3 hawk
cammy 6-4 hawk
ken 6-4 hawk
chun is 7-3 hawk
ryu is 5-5
boxer is 6-4 in boxers favor
claw is 5-5
blanka is 6-4 in blankas favor
sagat is 7-3 hawk
gief is 5-5, maybe 6-4 in hawks favor cause of dp
dj is 7-3 in dj’s favor
sim is 8-2 in sims favor
honda is 9-1
guile is 8-2
akuma is 9-1

dont think i missed anyone, maybe giving hawk too much credit

[Bronzefist]

lol 9-1 in Honda’s favor is too true =(

[RagingStormX]

I need to play damdai’s akuma