4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

I don’t see how suggesting that ryu needs something to help him is missing the point. Also I already said how I know reversal dp not his main issue, it’s just the icing on the cake. I still think it was a dumb change though, sue me. I never said he should have throw loops, I don’t know where this is coming from.

As for the changes Ryu needs, that’s debatable. I wish there would be some more focus on his fireball game but I’ll take whatever. His offensive tools and his buttons are lacking.

Maybe I just don’t like the way you worded it lol. I never considered it a “free 50/50” if I got knocked down. That makes it sound like a favorable situation when it’s actually very unfavorable to the person on the ground.

They are better due to the other buffs and nerfs in the game. The meta is different now and IMO I think those types of moves benefit from it. Though it could just maybe seem that way to me specifically because ryu isn’t what he used to be.

Reversal isn’t a 50/50 and it isn’t free. It’s a high risk low reward option most useful for forcing an opponent to respect your defense when they’re doing frame traps a normal can’t handle.

You have rock paper scissors, well actually more than that but you get the idea.

Meaty is one option against an opponent.
Whiff baiting is another option.
Safe jumping yet another option.
You also have walk up like I’m going to meaty but block instead.
Oh, there is also shimmy.

That’s at least 5 options off the top of my head the attacker has vs someone waking up. That means the defender has to decide if he wants to roll the dice and have a reversal beat an attack, which is at the very least based on what I’ve jotted down, a 20% chance of winning rock paper scissors. This also isn’t random, but a thought process from anther human who may or may not be training you to do what they want on wake up.

It’s definitely not a free 50/50 since at least 4 other options allow the attacker to punish the person failing a reversal, which in this game leads to a CC for extended damage and usually a corner carry if you’re not already there as the defender. Not only that, but a dropped input during a reversal attempt against a meaty, the one option reversal is meant to beat, results in getting a decent punish. That’s a risk vs reward both the attacker and the defender are taking. The attacker takes the smaller risk of getting reversal for a larger reward of good damage vs a defender taking a larger risk to get a smaller reward of simply resetting to neutral.

What do you get for a “free 50/50” ?? A neutral reset, unless someone like Ryu had full meter and super canceled, in which case the attacker should have respected Ryu at that point since the meta changed the second Ryu had full meter.

For frame traps it’s a similar risk. An attacker could use a normal that is 4 frames of start up that’s +2 on block. That means a 2 frame window, which means no normal is going to beat that out. The attacker can do it again, and maybe train the defender to think the attacker is doing something mindless. The defender might see the third attempt and try to reversal to gain some room to breathe, but this time the attacker only did 1 attack and backed off, and the defender just whiffed their reversal. Again, this is all part of rock paper scissors, but in the case of SFV, it’s mostly just rock for the defender while the attacker has rock and paper and isn’t throwing out scissors.

Look at the risks vs reward and then think about why it doesn’t make sense to nerf something that was already risky. Then look at the change in balance from offense to defense and see how a defender now has one less option to play rock paper scissors with in a game that is very heavy on rock paper scissors. Instead of nerfing the over all game because 4 out of 22 characters had good reversal tools, they really should have given more people those same tools. SF2 had a cast of 16 characters and all but 1 of them had a meterless reversal. Not all reversals were equal, but with good timing and execution they at least worked to reset to neutral when needed. Perhaps if v.reversals actually worked and didn’t suck horrendous horse cock then having a reversal that always cost meter for the entire cast would be fine if none of the cast had meterless reversal drawn from the critical arts bar.

In the sense that the question is if the reversal will hit or miss, I’d say it’s 50/50 or 50%. You could estimate that individually to say 5% against Daigo and 95% against somebody like me.

I’m going to stand by that meterless reversals are free, though. If we compare it to stocks you need to pay to take the risk but you didn’t with meterless reversals. I think this is a huge step in the right direction because it requires everybody to actually work their way out of a bad situation rather than just busting out the dragon punch.

Second post, first page. I already addressed everything you say here. Your premise that “you have all these options as the attacker” is bullshit. You don’t generally have a safe jump opportunity against quickrise.
As an example, after Chun knocks the opponent down with ex legs or mk sbk and the opponent quickrises, she has to dash twice at midscreen and then she’s at point blank with a plus 3 frame advantage. That’s not enough time to safe jump. It’s also not enough time to shimmy, if she holds backwards after the double dash and the opponent wakes up with throw or throw tech, they will throw her. So that takes out both shimmy and safe jump as options. Chun right here has 3 options. Do nothing and get thrown or block the reversal. Do a meaty and beat the throw tech or get hit by reversal, do a throw and get hit by the reversal or throw the opponent. Blocking the dp in this situation IS NOT SAFE. You can get thrown for trying to do it.

In oldschool streetfighter this wasn’t an issue. You could safe jump the opponent or even do a crossup, or bait the dp to WIFF. You weren’t in throw range if you didn’t want to be. But in sf5 you generally will be in throw range. So it’s very hard to be ambiguous.

This makes baiting a dp a hard read in that situation. And since the dp beats 2 out of 3 options it’s a pretty decent bet.

Anyways, like I said I already explained this (and more) in the second post of this thread.

Why wasn’t this send? Must have missed the button.

Ibukis st.lk =/= Ryus st.lk.
I read so many salty complains of people focusing their entire gameplan around st.lk, now are unable to play anymore, because they nerfed st.lk.
It basicly shows how this button was a one trick pony.
Also saying “uh but this char has, what I had” is kindergarden level of arguring.

If you want to help the old sack of bones with the personality of a uncolored brick, ask for better mediums.
A better st.mk or cr.mk will help more than his st.lk.

Now reversals are no longer free, because before they were. For 4 whole characters!

And yes it’s 50/50.
It’s simple.
Each time you do an action on the opponents wakeup you have to think about this option, he either will do it or not.
If he takes a bait and does it, doesn’t change the fakt that he might not do it, even if you bait.
The fact that reversals are a thing, changes the approche on wakeup, if your opponent has no reversals, you don’t take a risk on his wakeup, because he has nothing to stop you.
But if he has one, each action you choose to do on his wakeup is a guess. Because he might or might not do it.
Turn it around how you want, he either does it or does it not it’s 50/50, the risk reward doesn’t change the fact that it is a 50/50 situation.
And I realy want to see all the safejumps the cast gets from regular knockdowns, quickrises make it basicly impossible to safejump.

Are meterless reversals still good anti-airs? I often find myself getting trade or losing straight up…

They are naturally worse than S1 against deep jump-ins because with the i-frames kicking in later you have two more frames where you can get tagged before your active frames begin. They are still arguably better than most AA normals though.

You have to do them a bit earlier now.
Yeah, this fucked the timing for a lot of people up, since most DP antiairs were used realy late, therefore trade now or just straight lose.
It will take time, but if you do them a little bit earlier, you will not notice a difference.

they are straight up worse AAs now. it’s not a matter of “timing”

I don’t understand how people can disagree with this.

Cammy still has a really good one and people don’t jump when she has super because dp super rapes your life

except that now she can’t expose fraudulent set ups because her EX DP has less range than most throws in this game.

In the last two months since the season two update I’ve had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

To me it’s no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it’s 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

Give a explanation, because I have no problems and I played yesterday the whole time Ryu in Battlelounge.
The DP wasn’t beaten a single time, they got clean anti-aired.

fully invincible DP: never trades or gets stuffed

partially invincible DP: sometimes trades or gets stuffed

decide for yourself which is better

As a Ken player, in S2 just like S1, I have never been clean hit or even traded using Kens MP DP against an air attack unless it was on the way down (I.E. Whiffed).

Yeah MP DP for all Shotos are fine. I mained Ryu in S1, dabbled with Ken in S1 and I’m using Akuma in S2 now. You can still AA as normal.

DPs still being good AAs doesn’t change the fact that they aren’t as good as they were before.

there’s an argument to be made that they’re ‘good enough’ in S2. but there’s absolutely no argument that they’re as good as they were in S1, because it’s factually untrue.

Late dps for the auto-correct get stuffed a lot now, you have to hold some jumps. They’re worse anti airs now, getting late dps stuffed 1 time out of 10 makes a huge difference.

Thats an argument at why they are worse.
I do the DP’s usualy early, because I’m used to it from Cammy. She got more damage from a DP after a specific amount of active frames, if it hit also as counterhit, could your meterles DP hit fpr 200 damage in SFIV and SFxT.
Thats probably the reason at why I don’t notice any difference.