4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

It was a weird decision when it was first revealed, and very “un-Street Fighter”, but what are your thoughts now that you’ve had time to play Season 2. General consensus I’ve heard thrown around is:

  • It’s reduced defensive options for a select few characters, in turn making those characters play more similarly to the rest of the cast
  • For a game you want to sell, you’ve made the game appeal even less to casuals. They’re going to wonder why their DP doesn’t work anymore
  • Less hype? No more UmeShoryus and Phenom Necalli DPs.

Getting hit by a CC combo is brutal in this game, isn’t that enough to discourage reckless use of DPs? If DP into Super was too damaging, may find another way to scale the damage? If the DPs themselves were too damaging, nerf their damage?

Is there some balance decision / overall design philosophy with SFV that justified their removal? Did they want to take less “randomness” out of the game? Did they want to ensure that when players earned a hard knockdown, they’re entitled to a free meaty attack against ALL of the cast?


It’s a touchy subject but since I’m like the only that suggested it in this forum (even though I never thought that it would happen) I’ll give the reasons why I myself think the way I do:

1.sf5 is not sf4 or sf2 or sf3, the game mechanics are very different and most things though not all, have been nerfed from previous iteration of the series:

Command grabs are no longer 0 frames and have less range than usual.
Throws have been slowed down and have less range
Jabs/weak attacks have been nerfed for comboability with them not usually linking into mediums nor usually having weak attack x3 confirms
Reversals as a whole have been nerfed by making most of them use meter and only being able to store 3 meters (as opposed to sf4’s 4 meters)
And a whole slew of other things that have changed in this game, while meterless reversals have stayed basically the same outside of getting crunch countered.

  1. Baiting reversals in this game isn’t just harder than in other games, you simply have way fewer options to do it. In sf4 as an example you could get point blank up to your opponent on a hard knockdown and then backdash at the last instant and make their DP wiff and get a full punish on them. This was a very ambiguous bait and you generally lost nothing for doing it. If the opponent didn’t take the bait, well you lost a bit of momentum, but that’s it. This was a very ambiguous type of bait and it really kept reversals in check even when people would fade them since the reversal would wiff. In sf5 however this type of bait is generally unavailable against quickrise because of the nature of quickrise, it leaves you at +2 to -4 on most moves. That means to bait you have to actually have to block the opponents reversal and that is risky. The opponent could just grab you since you have to be point blank to make anyone scared, or they could jab and then throw you. These are 2 options that you never really had to deal with in the streetfighter series if you played the oki game right.

But now, you DO have to deal with the opponent having those defensive options ON TOP of no longer having huge hard knockdown frame advantage to work with. This makes reversals exceptionally strong in this game because of how non ambiguous the attacking characters position is.

  1. The meterless reversal characters as a group save for ken were all saving to super exceptionally easy with little to no downside for the effort. They had good damaging meterless combos and super damaging metered combos on top of the meterless reversal.
  2. Crush counters to do big damage to reversals is nowhere near the “nerf” to reversals that people say it is. That’s just those people drinking the koolaid and not understanding the sf5 system mechanics. in most street fighters if you wiff a reversal you will get hit by a combo that does around 25% damage up to 75% damage depending on meter and positioning but no meter will usually be like 25% for most top and mid tier.

In sf5 if you have no meter your “punish” is puny. We are talking about like around 110-200 damage meterless depending on character. 200 damage isn’t even 25% life against a 900 hp character.
So to balance sf5’s damage scaling and system mechanic issues they made it so that all invincible non CA moves go into crush counter state so that most characters can do around 200 damage meterless up to around 300 damage or so for a meter for a punish. This makes it feel like “normal” damage when punishing reversals.
Remember, in this game when you punish something you generally don’t get a good attacking position for it afterwards. So the damage is mostly all you get. Whereas in old school game you take at least 25% meterless (usually more) or you get put into a nasty mixup situation that can lose you the game. Neither of these apply really to sf5 without CC so it really needed to have the CC mechanic added to reversals.

Think about a game where it’s unsafe to bait dps, punishing them gives you little damage, you don’t get a decent mixup for a punish, and offense is very turn based because pressure is hard to come by because weak attacks and confirms push you out of throw mixup/frame trap range. That’s what the game would look like with fully meterless reversals and no CC on block.
5. Burst damage is a lot more viable and important in sf5 because of the lack of vortex style mixups. So being able to save to a super very easily is a huge advantage. That advantage is most easily accessed by characters that have no reversal to spend meter on (and that’s a huge weakness to have that strength) and characters that get a reversal for no meter of course have all the awesome benefits.

It’s for these general reasons that meterless reversals had to go. As it is though I think that capcom implementation is terrible. DP’s should never get stuffed by jump in attacks. Not only that but meterless reversals still work against gap offense and since there like no tight blockstrings, they are still an excellent reversal.

Implemented correctly I would have made meterless reversals totally invincible to all jump attacks and totally not invincible to any ground attacks. I would have made ex reversals invincible to everything with slightly more damage to boot.

Having said all that, I personally would totally welcome meterless reversals to come back with open arms if hard knockdowns were put back into the game… which will never happen.

Or if that couldn’t happen then I’d like to see backrise taken out or quickrise be made around +10 after the dash so that dp could realistically be baited without putting the attacker in range for being counter thrown or wake up jabbed.

But more would actually need to be done, but oh well.

Damn… I love your explaination…

I have to admit that I like the change but could never have explained myself as you just did.

I like it that I can pressure freely when my opponent does not have meter, and when he does, I may eat the damage and are knocked down, but at least my opponent had to pas for that strong option to switch turns on HIS knockdown.

I’m sure Dime said a lot of what I would have said. Game is a different game and is more like Alpha 2 or 3S where you can roll or alpha counter out a lot of the potential set play.

Which means that since shotos, Necalli and Cammy were the only ones with frame 1 dps, they inherently had more meter more often than those that didnt. This makes it so they have to at least kill a bar sometimes to get out of a bad situation. Which either way those characters can still really hold onto meter since none of their EX moves are really required for them to function and get close to winning a round.

Do I have another version of the game compared to everyone else? Because in mine, invincible reversals weren’t removed at all. They just have specific invincibility (like throw invul) or have the invincibility start on frame 3, meaning you can still use them against everything but proper meaties or frame traps with a gap of 2f or less. If it isn’t enough you can spend a bar and avoid the guess, a possibility that is available to merely a half of the roster. Approaching Chun in S1 or Urien in S2 isn’t less scary because they have to spend a bar to get their fully invincible reversal.

On top of that, oki has never been as weak in SF series as in this game, and they made it even weaker by removing throw loops and nerfing advantage on KD on many moves including V-Reversals. There’s a very limited set of situations where the opponent can do something other than meaties on your wake-up, so blocking is a safe answer on 80% of cases. And it’s not like they have 50 options to keep the pressure on you like in other games.
If this game had such oppressive okizeme as games like GG I would understand that you really need more options to get out of jail for free. But really, if you’re so free on wake-up in SF5 that you feel the need of more powerful options then it’s on you.

What’s “great” about throw loops? Its stupidity lies right there in its name. It’s one of the dumbest complaints I hear about SFV - “I don’t have any throw loops”.

With an endless supply of invincible reversals it was like playing a card game with the family where you lay down a good card but the opponent may at any time just pick it up and just throw it away.

Not much has changed except that I have to spend one meter and that I rarely have enough meter for super anymore. I like the change overall especially when you’re applying pressure on wakeup, and if you’re on defense just learn to damn block or spend meter.

its weird but ultimately i don’t care that much about it.

also, throw loops are really good and the game needs more of them. you can tech throws without taking damage. I’ll never understand the desire for some people to never deal with offense. You lose neutral, watch yourself die. Thats Street fighter. Be happy you can tech throws.

Invincibility has always been a fraud mechanic anyway. Breaks the visual logic of the game- if your foot is being pushed through my face and out the back of my skull, me yelling “Shoryuken” shouldn’t just fix everything for me.

Things should win or lose based on hit and hurt boxes as much as possible, and if that means sometimes you have to block a meaty then sometimes you’re gonna have to block a meaty. Or at least learn to live with spending a meter. Not like that EX isn’t also giving you more damage.

S2 is way boring than s1, sorry guys

Looks like they might have made the right move reading these responses. Good stuff.

With the Spring update announcing, do you believe they’re reverting the DP change?

I would haaate the return of the “disrespect” but I can imagine the Capcom devs itching to do something (fraudulent) about shotos being the most played and also being at the bottom of the winrates. Hope Woshige channels his inner Millia and manages to keep the new world order.

Not a chance. None of the DLC characters had meterless fully invincible reversals, which means this change has been decided a long time ago.
Also the shotos are - and have always been - at the bottom of winrates only because every noob picks them.

I’d be surprised if DP doesn’t return. It is commonly expressed with good players that this change is honestly dumb, and part of the reason why characters like Laura, Rog, and Urien, run a train.

Shotos in particular, hurt badly from this change. Ryu is straight garbage now, and capcom was too lazy to rework Ryu after taking away dp. His normals are below average, fireball got worse and the game is just not friendly towards them, and now he is a joke on defense

Javits had the right idea with invincible reversals. Bring them back, but don’t allow some to be special cancelable, and only make one dp dedicated for reversals and the others for combos that can be cancelled.

I don’t notice it, but y’know what I do notice? Characters who had them in S1 no longer sit on full meter as often.

Idk if good or bad but it’s there.

They didn’t take dp away. Regular ones still have partial invincibility and ex ones have full invincibility. If ryu is “garbage” now, that has more to do with his players not using ex dp or the fact that rog has gotten better and he was already a character that pwnd fireballs.

Who’s a “good” player is subjective as hell. 99% of this forum including myself are in the top 5% of everyone that has ever played sf5 online.

“Good” literally means “as good as me or better” to most people. Gootecks is better than most players in this forum yet few would call him good, here.

I don’t listen to what the evo champ has to say as far as balance is concerned if that balance doesn’t start to trickle down to most levels.

Ryu is garbage because his St lk a joke, fireball is worse most characters, and he free on defense. Rog beating his ass is just top of the iceberg.

Balance should only trickle to intermediate to high level. Beginners aren’t even in the question, because they aren’t knowledgeable enough to know why they are losing to begin with.

As someone who, historically, has never picked characters with an invincible DP…


The only people happy with these changes are going to be people who never played DP characters before.

These changes just alienated a load of players. Not as though this games community was large in the first place.

i only play dp characters typically, especially since v launched and I’m completely indifferent.

dps are still good, you can catch a lot of people a lot of the time. I’m still interrupting looser frame traps, or some meaties (a lot of people use meaty setups that technically arent meaties)