4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

Street Fighter V
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There are (were) 4 meterless dp characters in the game. The game has… 22 characters last I checked (can’t be bothered right now)

So there being 4 in top 16 and 2 in top 8 seems rather natural.
Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people’s ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That’s why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what’s the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain’t complaining. It’s just a dumb game. But I don’t see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

And finally I don’t think quoting evo or capcup is the way to go. It’s very well known that tournament results tend to shift towards the players that know the game better than players using the tippity top tier, at least in the new school/depending on game I guess.

Look at zero in umvc3. Widely considered the best character in the game, but a guy using hulk/haggar of all people is the best player.

Like I said, ryus problem aren’t his problems. The problem is that characters that can get around his fireballs do it to easily.

Once that gets rectified, if it gets rectified, ryu will be in a good place and with no buffs to himself needed.

But if ryu does get back invincible dp then at the very least Chun should get a majorly buffed throw range and a good safe on block/no meter, throw wiff punish.

The thing is, I’m not asking for Chun to get back a plus on block iall. It was to good. But now it’s useless basically. But that doesn’t mean that she now deserves to get it back. What really needs to happen is the throw tech windows needs to become smaller or throws need more range or both.

It’s less a “Chun” problem and more a system one. Same as “ryu sucks” is less a ryu problem and more a matchup design issue.

But I mean, feel free to continue ignoring that point I guess.

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Chun’s throw range has already been buffed, now it’s the same as most characters.

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They also increased the pushback on her lights so the problem isn’t exactly fixed.

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That wheelchair ryus are in now seems to look pretty comfy.

Awhile back I told @Highlandfireball to abuse ryus fhp more. Well it seems daigo finally got the memo, in this matchup at least.

Ryu so low tier with only an ex reversal and a spammable -2 on block hitconfirm that reaches nearly half screen and recovers outside mixup range:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aki4XHxzP8A

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Ryu winning games? Against good players?! What sorcery is this?

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low tier does not mean “unable to win games against good players”

try again

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Dime you don’t have a clue about the character. Solar Plexus a lot isn’t really a good idea because the move is slow (You can get hit out of it early) and it leaves you at -2. It does big damage on hit but how many times are you gonna land it against better opponents?

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Watch the video. Learn. It’s easy. Ryus blocked solar plexus only gets punished on the very first try. After that daigo uses all kinds of ways to not get solar plexus punished or even harassed much.

It seems that you are the one that needs to learn.

Solar plexus is good against aggressive characters that need to walk or dash forward a lot. Aka it’s stinking good against Chun for that reason alone. But it’s good in just about any matchup where people have to approach ryu, like how nashes mk scythe is a good tool against people that need to approach Nash. The moves work basically the same. The distances are different and the advantages on block and hit are different.

As an example though. Solar plexus is -2 on block and gives a combo on hit, meterless for no CH.

Rashids st.hk is -4 doesn’t give combo on regular hit.
Chuns fhk is -2 on block with near the same startup as solar plexus but it doesn’t give combo on regular hit outside v trigger. And even then the move can’t be combod into her cr.lp unless it’s used at around 50% of its max range whereas solar plexus converts into hp dp at around 80-90% of its max range.

Different characters of course but don’t downplay how good polar plexus is in this game compared to what others have. I hit people with the shit all the time and I don’t even use ryu much at all. It’s really easy. Throw a fireball or walk backwards a bit, both designed to get the opponent to move forward, then throw out solar plexus.

It’s not rocket science at all.

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Dime is right. Well placed solar plexus is very scary. Safe on block move that you can fish with and get huge damage if it lands. What makes it the scariest is how it’s active for about 4 or 5 different frames which is a big deal in this game. If you’re unnecessarily whiffing buttons or walking forward at him that’s all it takes to get clipped and your life bar goes away

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solar plexus is alright but it’s not enough to make ryu a good character. if we’re just gonna look at individual moves without looking at wider context than we could probably make FANG or Vega or Alex or anybody else sound broken. (FANG’s cr.MK is a +3 on block, easy to confirm 2-hitting medium with 5 active frames and good range! can’t be low tier with a move like that!)

anyways, 17f startup means it’s suicide to toss out solar plexus within your opponent’s CC range, so you essentially already have to be winning the spacing game to use it. if it gets blocked (which is rather likely) it’s -2 and gives very little pushback. you lose your turn and spacing, so it’s not a good zoning tool like scythe (which has better startup, range, and pushback). it’s more of a “toss it out there and pray” move like a CC except with significantly longer range and startup. still good to have but doesn’t make up for Ryu’s crappy CC game. I would much rather have a standard CC that I can pop from around sweep range for comparable damage + V gauge but with much faster startup. most CC’s are safe on block and easy to confirm anyways; that’s not unique to solar plexus. in fact spaced blocked CC’s leave you in a better situation since they don’t place you right in front of your opponent.

the fact that Daigo did a good job escaping the situations where he was -2 doesn’t change the fact that it’s a disadvantageous scenario

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D

I disagree with a lot of that. Most CC buttons in this game are punishable if not spaced right. S1 ryu st.lk made sure of that. Now in s2 it’s a bit more fair since st.lk xx ex special is no longer a braindead punish to any slightly misspaced CC button, but it’s still there. CC by and large aren’t free. Urien is the only character that I know of that really has free CC button. And he pays for it with no range on his non v trigger confirms and being a charge character to get out any of his strong specials.

No one is saying that ryu is good “because of solar plexus” we are saying that solar plexus is good. A character can be bad while still having a good move or 2 or 3 good moves if all the other characters have 10 good moves instead. This is obvious.

I’m not convinced ryu is bad in this. His design is still good. It’s just that the design of other characters with regards to beating fireballs, is bullshit.

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Yeah Dime just keep convincing yourself that all you want to. The fact you say his design is still good and St Lk ex special was a braindead punish you still don’t have a clue about Ryu you just think you do. St Lk in season 1 kept some of those CC moves in check on block so the people with those CC buttons (ken st hk, Karin st HK) couldn’t just throw it out in neutral whenever they wanted to but now with his st Lk in season 2 it’s much harder. I really hope the patch reverts his st LK back but given what they done i have no faith in this balance patch.

And yes Solar plexus is good IF you can land a hit with it, if your opponent keeps blocking the move then you’re not doing yourself any favors.

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Moves are automatically bad if they’re blocked? Lol I’m done!

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well when you say things like:

it makes it sound like you think those 2 moves are good enough to keep him from low tier. unless you weren’t being sarcastic about him being “so low tier”, in which case we’re in agreement

a character’s tier is determined by matchups, not how “good” their design is in theory. if ryu’s design is “good” but the game is flooded with characters who shit on that design, he’s still a bad character.

I also happen to disagree that his S2 design is good, it seems totally incoherent to me.

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As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn’t understand why, THANK YOU.

I couldn’t put my finger on what felt…wrong.

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Sure, “the game is dumb” but the guy’s solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

Unless I’m mistaken, that’s the elemtary lesson in footsies.

So… “the game is dumb”

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IMO it’s just a massive buff to the offense in a game that’s already lacking defensive options. Now people don’t have anything to respect after they knock you down which promotes just going in even harder. Having to use a bar of meter just makes reversals even more risky than before. I think it was a bad decision especially with all the stupid fast/safe and crazy hard to react to EX moves in the game.

Maybe I’m bias because I play Ryu but I feel like the neutral in this game is worse than it was in season 1. Dealing with Urien, Balrog, Bison and etc. is a nightmare. The lease they can do is give us our meterless reversals back to deal with the nonsense. I feel like AA dp’s don’t do enough damage in a game where jumping is so rewarding, fireballs are way too risky and the reversal dp nerf is the icing on the cake.

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Maybe? But, counterpoking still feels “off” in this game in comparison to other ones I’ve played. I’ve used Chun-Li for years, and I was baffled by why it felt so hard to play footsies with her.

But I’ve only been playing fighters “seriously” since SFIV, so I thought it just might be me because no one else had any complaints. But he put the exact problems I felt into words.

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Frame lag is what makes counter poking hard in sf5.

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I get what you’re saying but I just thought that phrasing was a little way out there… :stuck_out_tongue: Just like everybody else I wish the input-response was much faster, but there is definitely some explanation as to why it’s at least not on par with SF4, but you gotta remember SF4 had input-delay online while SF5 does not but rather has a universal delay, I guess you could say… As somebody who just about exclusively plays online, I will definitely say that this is my preference, but still I definitely feel the “universal input-delay”. I hope it gets improved a little bit as we go along.