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which characters do you think are worse than ryu?
I think the most obvious choices are fang alex vega nash, same as alioune’s list (though interestingly nemo doesn’t list vega bottom 5). you could also admittedly argue for sim, which would make ryu bottom 6 rather than bottom 5.
but apart from those characters who do you think is worse?
That’s not how I think about it in this current meta. For me I more have it as top tier and bottom tier. The top and bottom tier are very matchup subjective. But I basically have ryu tied with everyone not named urien,guile, Laura,cammy/ everyone else that is obviously quite good.
Ryu is meh tier, he wins some matchups but loses more than he wins just like the rest of the bottom tier. Problem is his fireball is a problem in many matchups.
To me it’s less a ryu is bad or good issue, it’s a these characters have to many ways around fireballs issue.
If you pump up his fireballs or normals he wins the matchups that he wins, even harder, and that creates even worse balance amongst the cast and since ryu is one of the most picked characters you create a game where he’s going to dominate to much since he’s always on the damned screen.
No all around character should ever be top tier. Top tiers are best when they have big/easily exploitable weaknesses that every character or close to it, can try to exploit.
And I call him “midtier” because the bottom tier is bigger than the top tier and because I can’t think of a true bottom tier character in this game. Every character can pull out some shit, they can all win, including ryu. It’s just that the obviously top do it better.
So a better way to say it is a higher and lower tier rather than a top and bottom tier.
If I were to grade it I’d have high tier as A and B and lower tier as C.
Ryu is C for me but C is more than half the cast so C is mid.
I’m not a shoto player, but I think meterless DPs should return. They are already at the losing end if they whiff their DP. No need to nerf them to oblivion.
Yeah, just put hard knockdowns back in as well, win win.
Yeah, I think I’m good on facing shotos every other match. I’m all for the dp changes. Every shoto still has solid damage and anti air buttons so no sympathy.
For the millionth time, you can still have a 1 frame dp, it just costs meter excluding v triggered Cammy and Akuma.
that’s a non-sequitur. solid damage and anti air buttons don’t make up for Ryu’s lack of DP.
his ground buttons are still shit which means as long as his opponent can work their way into CC range (trivial for anyone with walk speed or a decent anti fireball tool) he has to play very cautiously. that means means backing himself into the corner and pressing hardly any buttons. that means frequently ending up in situations where he needs a reversal to have a chance.
it would be one thing if he had meh defense and meh buttons but amazing offense - that would be just fine. but Ryu’s offense is garbage compared to the top tiers, mostly due to his waste of a V-trigger. I don’t see how you can look at Rog’s VT damage+corner carry and conclude that it’s just fine, but Ryu - whose oki has been destroyed and whose scariest mixup is cr.MK shimmy - doesn’t even get a DP.
yes he can spend meter for it, but needing to spend meter pretty much nullifies your “solid damage” argument because ryu heavily relies on super for damage. you can’t look at his damage in a vacuum, either, because one of his good enders whiffs on crouchers (target combo) and the other has unreliable range (HP DP) which means he’s forced to cancel stray hits into hadouken more often than not. apart from being less damaging, it gives no oki, which means much less damage over the course of a game. you can use EX tatsu or EX shoryu as a whiff buffer instead but again… that EX meter is very precious and you are trading off with your ability to comeback via super or EX DP.
yes he has decent anti air buttons (well, cr.MP at least) but you will almost never have time for that if your opponent jumps your fireball or a normal attack. the ability to land deep AA DPs was quite important for ryu’s zoning game, @Highlandfireball could do a better job of explaining that than me
finally, advocating for other characters to get nerfed to irrelevance simply because you don’t enjoy fighting them is pretty lame. I detest fighting Bison probably more than any other character in the game… but I’ve frequently advocated for bison buffs, because I think bison mains deserve to have their fun just as much as I do.
I love you quark 
But having said that:
You know what does make up for ryus lack of a dp?
The fact that he still has a dp.
Not having invincible DPs is trivial. In truth, no one should have lost it.
I don’t even think jab AAs should’ve gone the way of the dodo. Jumping has and always should be a very risky thing to do in any Street Fighter game. This isn’t Marvel or an AWS game. Going to the sky means you’re risking heavy damage and a possible mixup in order to a.) circumvent your opponent’s ground game and b.) get in to inflict heavy damage.
Season 2 took out both and now I’m seeing EVERYONE jump. Why wouldn’t they? You might AA them 8 out of 9 times but do negligible damage. Meanwhile, on that ninth go they actually land a hit and get you for 40-50% damage.
What sort of trade-off is that?
All season 2 is for me is people wanted to fly freely and Capcom gave in.
Shotos are all bad expect for Ken who is decent/good. That’s how it is for S2 imo.
Ryu is hot garbage, Akuma would be okish imo but the top 5 destroy him free.
The only reasons Ken is still ok is because he has good conversion leading to corner carry from his subpar buttons and he still murder people in the corner. Actually improved oki in the corner in S2.
Ryu cannot do anything just straight up. On top of subpar buttons he has garbage oki. And he is no zoner.
Akuma is good when he is in your face and he has a bunch of tools but his buttons have got to be the worst I’ve ever seen for the midrange game. His buttons are not subpar, they are complete garbage. Also one mistake and vtrigger Rog kills him.
So I don’t think the DP nerf is what’s killing shotos but it’s part of it for sure. DP sometimes loose when you AA with it, what the fuck is this shit for real? Having very reliable AA was a very good strength that they had over other characters but this is nerfed and it’s more impactful than the reversal nerf. Like it is said above you fail 1 AA out of 10 you loose half your life. That 1/10 is the DP loosing to a jump now.
I agree that Ken is still very good. Playing against @Valoon made me realise that the DP never was what made him strong in the first place, but rather his movement speed, his 20 ways of approaching you, his corner carry and corner game in general.
It makes really clear that what Ryu lacks is not DPs but tools in general.
Holy shit, every shoto just sulks at me for some reason. The way you talk is like DPs vanished from the game.
Once again, I never said nerf Ryu, nor did I say to irrelevance. I don’t give a shit if they take his dp invincibility or not, but since they did take it I’m all for it, and he still DOES have an invincible dp. A change I never thought or campaigned for happened, so I’m cool with it. The 80% chance of Shoto matchups have been reduced. Complain on Capcom unity or Eventhubs or whatever.
I hate fighting Bison too, where’s my nerf devils reverse posts?
Ryu needs meter for damage instead of get off me DPs? Cool, make Laura’s ex clap use no meter. Cuz she needs meter for damage lol.
Fuck it, back to just ‘hold dat’ responses.
I didn’t say you had campaigned for DPs to be removed. I said it’s lame to be happy about other characters being bad.
if you can’t see for yourself why giving Laura meterless EX clap would be more broken than giving Ryu his meterless DP back than I really don’t know what to say. apart from the fact that they fulfill entirely different functions, you can’t just compare tools in isolation without looking at a character’s entire toolset.
otherwise I don’t really know what you’re trying to say here. if you want to respond to the arguments I made for why Ryu needs a DP, go ahead. maybe we can have a discussion about it. you seem more interested in channeling LTG’s shoto scrub talk than making arguments though.
Uh oh… SHAMING LANGUAGE!
What will we ever do.
I already answered the basic questions in my first post in this thread. To go into it agai would just be rehashing it.
But EVERY character uses super to get more damage so that’s a very moot point.
Funny, when I first brought this up back in season 1, people told me (even if it happened we will adjust, the reversal isn’t the real problem anyways) and now that the METERLESS reversal has had 2 frames of invincibility shaved off of it, not even fully taken away, they’ve gone back on that change and now it makes ryu terrible.
LOL
I for the record welcome back meterless reversals, not just for the big 4 though, for basically everyone/ most characters.
IF THEY BRING HARD KNOCKDOWNS BACK.
Meterless reversal in a game where you can already mixup your wakeup timings Is fucking overkill.
I play Laura who doesn’t even have a reversal outside super and it basically means nothing because mixing up wakeup options is actually better than old school games where you had a meterless dp and hard knockdown.
People want both a quick rise a backrise AND a meterless dp… fuck that noise.
Or here’s another option:
Make back and quickrise cost a bar of v meter or a bar of supermeter. Keep meterless reversals. But now you have to pay for oki sidestepping privileges.
Only problem would be that this would unnecessarily gimp characters with no reversals, I think.
Hmmm
some characters are more reliant on it than others. I already explained why it’s particularly important for ryu so I’m not going to rehash my point, either.
maybe ryu players said that, I didn’t play ryu S1 so I wouldn’t know. in all fairness, though, most of us didn’t think that DPs were going to lose air invincibility as well as ground invincibility. we also didn’t know Ryu was going to get nerfed in a bunch of other ways that would aggravate the loss of his meterless DP.
hell… I just thought they were going to nerf his j.LK and throw loop and call it a day. if those were the only nerfs they made apart from the meterless DP change than ofc it wouldn’t be such a huge loss.
but there’s a reason I’m talking about Ryu here and not DP characters in general. cammy and necalli lost their meterless DP but are still top tier because they suffered minimal losses otherwise.
half of S1’s top 8 did just fine with no meterless reversal. in fact mika and nash had no reversal at all and still won the biggest 2 tournaments of the year. there was not 1 meterless DP character in the grand finals of capcup or evo.
so there’s simply no empirical basis for the claim that meterless DPs are innately broken or impossible to balance around in this game. it might make sense in theory but we have a year’s worth of data now and the data says otherwise. the characters who had meterless DPs were very strong but not even close to broken, and many of the reasons they were strong had nothing to do with their DP.
it’s true that mixing up wakeup timings makes defense stronger, but you’re neglecting that the CC system makes DPs MASSIVELY more punishable than they were in past games. that’s why the characters without a meterless DP could ultimately still compete.
I would love it if they brought back hard knockdowns though, can’t disagree with that.
Dont agree with much of that and im pretty sure most evidence is on my side. The only evidence to the contrary is daigo losing and not many other ryus stepping up to the plate.
- The dp aa thing is dumb and needs to go but its a red herring at this point. Your not going to get back meterless dp just because 1 in15 dps get beaten because you timed them to late. You can still use jab or cr.hp or cr.mp or ex dp.
- As far as it being theory, thats like walking into a wall and saying the wall is only theoretical.
Ive already stated what ryus true problems are, and what needs to be done to rectify that situation.
And as far as hard knowkdowns is concerned, yeah, its true. But its the way the game is so until they come back or until sf6 comes out and capcom proves it has a brain working there and the hkd comes back… nope, no meterless dps.
you don’t think the fact that evo and capcup were won by characters without reversals is evidence that you didn’t need a reversal to succeed?
The fact that nash immediately fell off after the win is evidence that people didnt know the matchup. The fact that mika won capcup is evidence that having 2 characters to cover each others bad matchups was a smart thing.
Mika didnt win capcup on her own. Guile covered her bad matchups and she covered his.
what about Fuudo? or Yukadon? or the 3 chuns who also made top 8 at CapCup?
only 2 of the top 8 players at CapCup used characters with meterless reversals
and only 6 of the top 16 players used characters with meterless reversals.
this was the final CPT tournament so you can’t exactly make arguments about the meta not being figured out yet.
sure, there are other tournaments we could look at for data, but all of these players were kicking ass consistently throughout the year with the possible exception of Fchamp and mr. crimson.
I think you’d have to willfully cherry pick results to come to the conclusion that meterless DP characters were broken. were they good? yes, but not good enough to lend credence to the claim that meterless DPs are impossible to balance around in SFV.