let blood run is right. Really. It doesn’t matter if you understand frames that information is completely useless if you can’t even defend yourself properly or understand the basic mechanics without having to think about them yet.
Also you can’t throw stuff like an spd… It’s essentially impossible. You would have to see it coming. By the time he dashes next to you or whatevers next to you you already missed your chance to grab. It’s virtually unbeatable because of its speed. SPD is 2 frame startup. You cannot see it coming because it’s 2 frames so there is no time to react and by the time you do anyway you’re already past the 2 frame mark. No abra cadabra. Just you can’t humanly react to a command throw as it starts (one like SPD) so you have no way of beating it. You can’t react to a normal throw as it starts either. Even with anticipation if it didn’t have a tech window it’d be untechable.
If by throwable throughout the animation you mean if they miss it then yes obviously they’re in recovery frames. There’s no magical throw mechanics AFAIK EXCEPT on Abel’s one throw. Command throws are just almost always faster so there’s no way to beat them with a normal throw.
This all really doesn’t matter anyway. Just like has been said a billion times. Play the game. Learn a chars chaining normals, links, cancels. Know vaguely what can special/super cancel and so on so you can test it out and see how it feels. Then just PLAY and try to incorporate what you learned. You’ll lose a lot but you’ll learn faster if you focus on trying to bring that stuff into your game instead of using what little you know to eke out a crappy unsatisfying win. You’ll find out nothing by reading. Reading comes after you’ve played a lot and can understand what you’re reading properly. No one can give you much advice because you don’t know anything to give advice about yet.
The timing on parry depends on the specific move being used by the character, and the distance they are from you. There’s really no way for you to figure it out with frame data because it’s all stuff that occurs organically in the game. You can’t look at a sheet of paper and understand how to parry. You just need to get a feel for it.
Wait, are we talking 3s or sf4 mechanics here? You were right before, you can be thrown out of an spd. It’s a small window however. No, i wasn’t suggesting this on reaction. You can throw the startup frames exception of course is Abel. Harder to do vs Gief and more risky since its faster frame wise but this situation would happen if both players went for a throw and the player using lp+lk was just a hair faster to execute the 2-button press vs a 360+p.
reason i brought it up is because I’m playing Alex and until I understand the game more playing him in a Zangief like manner and i have noticed that I’ve have been blatantly thrown out of a PB (I heard his PB grunt then I was thrown).
Start up frames for Power Bomb are 7+, grabbing is 2. SPD is 2 start up frames, so you aren’t going to get thrown out of that after the animation starts.
Note about Alex, down HP in the air is unsafe on hit!
When you start seeing people getting grabbed out of an SPD you tell me about it. This doesn’t happen because if you do it too early you eat SPD, too late you eat SPD. The timing is too specific. Not to mention the game is not this simple. Which is why framedata is not nearly as useful as people want it to be. Framedata is a nice thing to look at if you’re unsure whether you’re doing something wrong or something simply can’t be done. It’s a nice resource to check your experience against but other than that it’s worth very little.
People who play the game know how things ‘feel’ and what beats what without needing to see the framedata. Real fight situations > framedata, always. You don’t become a good player by theorizing and looking at framedata.
Anyone who knows the game can tell you things that are supported by framedata without actually knowing the framedata.
Power bomb is hella slow but has decent range. Alex is absolutely nothing like Zangief. If you keep thinking like that you’re not going to get anywhere at all. You’re not going to learn more acting like Alex is something other than Alex.
I’ve definitely been thrown out of SPD’s before and NOT EX ones either. Doesn’t happen often, but it does happen.
I totally understand your advice about frame data, but do understand that for me personally my sf4 game did not take a turn for the better until i understood move animations better. This is largely because the characters I use are heavily match-up knowledge dependent. Maybe things are a little more obvious in sf3, but the varying block and hit stuns on moves can definitely play tricks on the eyes.
Now all in all, I’m understanding the grapplers demise in sf3. (Well, they kinda suck too in sf4 but not as much) Command grabs outside of certain SA’s generally suck in sf3 because of the ridiculously long startup. I get that now. That’s what this thread is for, it has done a great job in explaining why the shit I do in sf4 just wont work in sf3.
Sf3 isn’t match up dependent. And block stun isn’t like sf4. This is proving my point to not worry about numbers and theories.
It sounds like your stuck on this block stun, frame advantage, move startup mumbo jumbo.
Also throws aren’t necessarily good to be throwing out like in sf4. In basic 3s you’re not that worried about getting your command grabs thrown because someone who mashes throw is easily punished. If your opponent knows you like to press throw a lot they are going to bait you hard.
Command grabs are great in 3s. Look at makoto lol.
I wouldn’t say command grabs suck as much as I’d say Alex’s isn’t very good. Karakusa is dope, and all of Hugo’s command grabs have their use. Even Q’s slow ass command grab gets some play. If you’re really gangster sjc that shit
the sf4 forums on SRK are flooded with all that frame data mumbo jumbo…but hardly nothing on learning the basics. all those guys who use abel in Sf4 and think the transition to alex is gonna be easy will prolly quit 3s lol
I blame capcom. the 4 series doesnt motivate a player to learn the basics
I tried gleaning some information form the boards while I was still actively playing SF4 and would find myself drowned in completely useless frame talk. People who can’t be bothered to actually play and learn how the game moves/feels are the people who blabber on about framedata and hitboxes. I always said framedata tells you nothing without experience to back it up but was drowned out by people whining that karakusa’s startup is 5 (or whatever) frames. Because they have something concrete to look at if they feel it’s unbalanced they’re whine is somehow more legitimate.
Matchups can be learned very quickly if you know your own character in and out. If you don’t then you end up spending time on specific matchups which is doing things totally assbackwards imho.
command grabs are fine in 3S. Just because power bomb isn’t amazing doesn’t mean they’re bad in the game as a whole. The fact that parrying is possible makes command grabs instantly more interesting. There’s a reason like 90% of the cast has some kind of command grab.
And really, who doesn’t like comboing into oro’s grab?
You just need to be grounded in reality when reading frame data otherwise you’ll start brainstorming unrealistic or unnecessarily difficult counters to things (aka playing theory fighter).
I guess I should have pointed it out earlier (or maybe someone else did and I missed it), but instead of figuring out the frame data for Urien’s shoulder to somehow improve your chances of parrying it, you should just jump back when you think it’s coming. The tackle whill whiff, and you’ll get a full jump in combo. No mess, no fuss or your money back.
Like I said earlier, frame data has its uses. However in some cases it can lead you on a windy road
Alex’s command grabs aren’t that bad to be honest, it’s just the character himself needs to work to be able to utilize them. All command grabs in the game have their uses and can lead to some huge combos/opportunities, even Spiral DDT. If anything I’d say the most useless is Hugo’s Ultra Throw, but even that leads to big damage/stun juggles, not to mention it pushes the opponent further to the corner or brings them back closer to you via Lariat follow-up.
OP take people’s post with a grain of salt. Some information in here is well… wrong.
There is no clear cut way to play 3s and there is no best way. Frame data in this game doesn’t mean as much because no matter what kind of situation you are put in or put your opponent in… there will ALWAYS be an answer/solution.
Tiers. If you want to win tournaments pick a higher tier character. If you love 3s and playing it and want to pick the path less traveled play lower tier. Tiers are fairly blurred from high mid to top just under chun. If you play low tier… tiers matter. If you don’t then they don’t matter nearly as much.
Yes Alex and the other low tier characters do suck. That doesn’t mean I don’t love them or they shouldn’t be played. The whole 3s cast is special and without the top tier or the bottom tier the game wouldn’t be as good.
I think tiers do matter, but i obviously don’t know enough about this game to write an essay on it. I can say i think it’s pretty silly to deny the advantages Yun/Chun/Ken have in this game. Of course they can be overcome, but I honestly believe i’d have to put years into this game to get to that point and at the end of the day for what?
I really like the game, alot. And can grow to love if i can get the tools to get better and the exposure which 3SO has the potential to give. But with all the new capcom fighting games on the horizon, i just don’t know if I’m willing to put in that amount of time especially in a realm where doods have been killing for 5-10 years already.
The other HUGE issue i have is playstyle. I’ve been conditioned in the sf4 world to turtle, in general play turtle characters and play it safe. This sort of thing gets you killed in 3s. Its really a rush down game overall. I’ve never learned how to play rushdown so that I think more than anything is the mountain to climb.
sorry for the auto biography, saving myself from the cool story bros
It’s not so much that it’s impossible, you just have less room to make mistakes with the lower tier. And if you say “easy, don’t make mistakes” good luck with that.
