You keep trying to simplify my argument into “let’s berate SF4 players” and you keep repeating your argument as “let people play what they want”.
I’ve already explained that letting people play what they want hinders our ability to play what we want, and what is better suited to be played in a tournament setting.
I never said berate SF4 players. I said tell the truth about SF4. IT SUCKS and is designed to pander to scrubs. It is not a competitive game or even in the same vein of game design as SF3. Same goes for MvC3 compared to MvC2, same goes for SFxT compared to CvS2.
You didn’t reply to me replying to your comparison of 3s and Nickleback or your generalizing of 3s being like anything else that people like. 3s is not the same, because it has a tournament scene that has been pushed aside for the SF4 scene that doesn’t deserve to have the spotlight.
admittedly, this is one of the things I haven’t done yet, and that is making tutorials for new players. Yes, they are important in this current FGC where most players are online players and do not have a scene where they can discuss strategies and refine them through due process. But this isn’t the only step that needs to be taken to bring 3s back. People who love 3s need to come together and stand against the tyranny that has overrun the FGC.
And I don’t know any ST player who does not admit that 3s is a great game and deserves to at least share the spotlight with ST. I have no qualms with sharing spotlight with ST. I think it is a good game in its own right. That’s why I also promote CvS2 and MvC2.
The issue arises when neither ST nor 3s have the spotlight when SF4 does.
Even divekick has more spotlight than ST and 3s. Cmon guys, it’s time to get real.
It’s sort of fair for you to bash sf4 in the name of 3rd but honestly anime games are advancing the mechanics and depth of fighting games. This is coming from someone who has only played 3s for the past like 6 years of his life.
Also I think lots of cvs2 players and st players don’t like 3rd because it is an inherently different game and imo is in no way a traditional fighting game.
Also I don’t think you can say mvc2 has that much thought behind it. The high level play is there (and super sick!) but the game design is not even on level with sf4. Again, I am in no way saying sf4 has better high level gameplay but that the game design of mvc2 is slapped together as hell.
you think there is some injustice. there isn’t.
not that many people want to play 3S. That is the reality.
you think your opinion means more. it doesn’t.
my comparison wasn’t 3s to nickelback… It was nickelback to sf4
many many more people like nickelback than neurosis. tournaments? what about air time? neurosis gets pushed down the line so nickelback can get more air time.
there’s nothing wrong with the comparison. you can apply it to virtually anything. your entire statement is juvenile. you act like you’re fighting a war.
Dude, you can’t just pull out a few games you don’t like, disregard everything else and then use it as an example of why the FGC is going to shit. There were way more trash fighting games coming out than great ones in the 90s too.
In recent years we have KoFXIII, the Blazblue series (Of course it’s not for everyone but it’s hardly a ‘scrub pandering’ game), the Arcana Heart series (I’m not a fan of the mostly schoolgirl roster, but the homing cancels + arcana system etc. are pretty cool), a new Guilty Gear coming to consoles soon and let’s not forget that the last update to Accent Core was in 2012.
Also, when you say a game isn’t ‘competitive’ - for 99.9% of players that is the worst reason for trashing a game ever. Are you a top Japanese 3S player? Or a top Japanese GG player? No? Well even if SF4 is more simple than 3S and MvC2, competing at the absolute highest level is still beyond you. You don’t have to waste hundreds of hours slogging out games against top players to decide you don’t like a game. I have many reasons why I don’t like SF4, but I’m not gonna pretend there’s no skill ceiling in a game that people are travelling around the globe to compete in.
A guy who uses the term “pedophile” in reference to every anime fighter isn’t going to Arcana Heart a chance. That said, I really liked 3, and thought it was super complicated. I couldn’t even use Weiss competently. I managed to win matches with Maori almost exclusively because people never fought her before, and couldn’t wrap their heads around Nee-san drop being an overhead.
Also, it makes me sad that nobody has mention Virtua Fighter yet. What little English speaking community that game has is convinced that Final Showdown is not only the worst installment in the history of the series, but possibly the worst game of all time. Why? Because it’s not VF4. It’s basically the 3S vs SF4 mentality, except the difference is a lot more minor, and also VF4 doesn’t have a scene at all anywhere so there’s no point in hanging onto it (and the last version of it never even had a home version). Maybe 4 really was better than 5, I never had the chance to play against another human being. VF5FS still feels like VF, which is more than I can say for any other game. They prefer no VF at all to playing FS, however, which is super crazy to me, and a big part of why I don’t really play that game anymore. It’s such a toxic attitude.
I feel like I had a point, but now I forget what it was.
This is a bad post that does nothing but hold 3s back. Sorry, but it’s true.
You’re backpedaling on your analogy, or you have no idea what you’re talking about.
You’re comparing FIGHTING GAMES to MUSIC. There are no tournaments for music. You can continue to listen to whatever you want and Nickleback can exist and not affect you. WE CAN NOT PLAY 3S IN EVO ANYMORE BECAUSE SF4 EXISTS AND HINDERS OUR ABILITY TO PLAY 3S AT EVO BECAUSE OF IT. Do you understand yet? Do you understand how your analogy is flawed? Do you get it? No, I don’t think you do because if you got it, you would have gotten it the last 2 times I proved you wrong. But you’d rather call me juvenile because I called you a scrub and told you to leave the site in another thread because you were riding frankie3s and pretending he was the only denjin player that Japanese copied at one point. This is how dumb you are.
I know I shouldn’t even be replying to you because you’ve been exposed time and time again as being a complete scrub with a big mouth who doesn’t even know how to play 3s, but I guess I’m just replying to rub in the fact that we all know that your loud voice has no credibility behind it.
The difference is that in the 90s, when trash games came out, the FGC REJECTED them. CFJ? SVC Chaos? Yep, both were rejected by the FGC. Why? Because they didn’t come with a million scrubs attached to them who wanted to be instantly gratified and competitive with mechanics tailored to allow them to do as such.
Let’s go over something here.
What is a tournament?
A tournament is a competition to find out who is the best player.
What game should ideally be played at a competition to find out who the best player is?
A game that is designed to be competitive, and not accessible. A game that is designed to be accessible allows people of lower skill to have a fighting chance, even when they are still losing. Games that are accessible have comeback mechanics like Ultras and XFactors. Mechanics that are in actuality and practice, anti-competitive in every way.
So why are you even saying that competitiveness is not a factor? Yes, I’m sure that 99.9% of players would rather play a game that’s easy for them to play. That does not change the fact that there are games like 3s that exist which do not have these DESIGN FLAWS that take away from the game’s competitive integrity. There’s a new phrase for you to go laugh at while you try and understand what I’m even saying. Competitive Integrity is probably something you’ve never even thought about.
ANYWAYS, I’ve recognized that you guys are not here to try and bring 3s back. You’re perfectly happy with how 3s is laughed at, or written off. You want it to be your little secret, and people like Ryan don’t even consider it part of the Fighting Game Community, which makes no sense, but okay, if you’re going to say that, I know exactly where you’re coming from (a position of “I don’t care enough about 3s to lose worthless “friends” by telling them the truth about SF4”). I get it. It’s hard to commit yourself to defending a game when it means telling the truth. Most people would rather lie and get along with everyone than tell the truth and get along with nobody.
That’s not me though, and as long as I still have a beating heart, I’m going to continue telling the truth about SF4. You guys don’t want to hear it, that’s fine. I won’t talk about it here. I’ll just do my part in trying to bring back the community we all love, you guys can continue doing whatever you’re doing. But know that you’re hurting 3s by not doing anything. You’ve lost a huge position in the FGC, and you’re not willing to fight for it back. That’s what’s pathetic. But I accept it. I won’t find any help here for my “crusade”. That’s fine. Carry on. I’ll get it done and you guys can reap the benefits of my work. I know my position is logically sound, and arguing with you guys, it has only cemented that point even further. All you guys have done is parrot the old “just let people play what they want” over and over again even when I’ve shown how doing nothing hurts your own scene over and over again. I’ll fight this WAR against tyranny.
I think a lot has been said, and I can’t really add much to this discussion at this point, so I’ll keep this post brief.
All I want to point out, duckcanoe, is that I am a post '09er scrub that started out playing SF4 (2011 to be exact). I don’t think I’m a special snowflake in a wave of stupid FG players - there are probably potential 3S players that we just haven’t reached out to yet.
I feel bad for you Duckcanoe, as it’s clear that you’ve tried incredibly hard to build a 3S scene where you live, with no payoff. I can’t imagine how isolated a FG player must feel with no local scene, so I appreciate your frustration. However, I hope you understand that your experience doesn’t necessarily correspond with everyone else’s.
Finally, re: Yuuki’s post about better documentation: there are many things we can do. My brother and I have always expressed an interest in making a 3S bible, despite the fact that we suck ass at the game. We’d definitely need help and time, but I do feel like it’s something we can do. I don’t know whether this would involve hijacking the “new” 3S pages on SRK’s wiki (easy!), or making a new website (hard… and slightly expensive). What do you guys think?
In the meantime, I think a short-term goal for the community is to translate the Game Restaurant wiki: http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/ . I don’t think that Japan is has some tech hidden there but I think it might be better than what we currently have.
nice to hear other people who have toyed with the idea too! I think there just isn’t enough organization among the people willing to do the work cause it would just be impossible for 1 or 2 people to cover every character and matchup. im like almost half way done with an exhaustive gouki overview, and i know other people have things theyve been working on already. im hesitant to lead the way though cause ive had this kinda thing fall apart on me a few times :s
I second this. I wouldn’t mind knowing what all those bullet points say under the frame data for moves. I don’t think they have hidden tech on there but there’s a lot of interesting information on that site like that how to block Aegis setups video that was posted earlier. The page they have on character rankings is kind of weird, I don’t know if it’s up to date or what but they have Yang and Akuma in the same tier as the usual three plus Makoto and Oro with Dudley one tier below that.
Ok, so let’s use SF4 as the example here. There are guys like Kuroda, VER (Top Zero 3 player), Latif (Top GG player), Sako (Top player in way too many games) and more playing it, but we’re all supposed to disregard this and accept that the game has no ‘competitive integrity’ because fucking duckcanoe told us so.
Also: a game is just a bunch of ones and zeroes, usually bound to a disc or a cartridge. Since it’s an inanimate object, one game cannot be more competitive than another game. Only the players can decide how ‘competitive’ they’re going to be. So yeah, ‘competitiveness’ is totally not a factor because it doesn’t actually mean anything in the context you’re using it. And even if you use it as a synonym for ‘complex’ (which it seems like you are), it still doesn’t matter… unless you’re at the skill level of say, one of the players I mentioned in the paragraph above who actually play multiple fighting games near the highest possible level.
I also don’t get the ‘comeback mechanic’ argument because such things have existed long before SF4 and MvC3. What about SDMs in old SNK games? What about the guts system in Guilty Gear? What about parries in 3S? Do these not count as ‘comeback mechanics?’
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I think it would be really beneficial for the 3s community to build their own site with an emphasis on character/game knowledge and our own set of forums. SRK and 3SJ both exist but I feel both have some problems. SRK’s problem is that we are attached to a community we have very little to do with (how many dedicated 3s specialists seriously play any other game?) and we’re kind of at the mercy of piggy backing on it. I think it’s lame that current American 3s tournament scene is relegated to side tournies of 15 people at majors on laggy monitors. no serious player shows up because they don’t wanna play on that setup, Justin and Ricky have another GF, James Chen and UltraDavid on commentary, and all viewers get from the experience is “man SF3: Chun mirror wait around low forward Strike sure is boring, glad that game is dead.”
3SJ has a different problem - despite good intentions and I think a pretty solid core of moderation staff, it is filled to the brim with OE-only idiots who have sucked and will suck forever and only want to talk about how they can get an S rank vs someone who doesn’t know how to block.
I think if we branched out and created a 3s site + forum it would have to be with the idea in mind that we’re doing something different. focusing on how we can get local 3s-only events played on good setups, organizing regionals, organizing national 3s tournies (like really if UK has Gutter Trash, why can’t we? why can’t America have it’s own version of coop cup? etc), focusing on improving the resources available for learning the game, local community building… list goes on for possibilities. the only disadvantage American 3s has is geography + money. besides that there’s no reason we couldn’t be doing more than we are. and when people see that kind of vibrancy in a scene, they want to be a part of it. Melee is almost the same age as 3s and the scene is still growing. I don’t see any reason why we couldn’t have a similar situation. CRTs are free. OE is a mostly good offline port, we have multiple outlets for online play, in some ways we have more natural advantages than the Melee scene.
and while I’m speaking from an American-centric perspective I think a site for all English-speaking 3s players with these ideals in mind would be the best thing. I just mention American 3s specifically since we have some of the least desirable outcomes despite having a lot of people who still play the game.
it all sounds good inside my brain but I recognize it would be a lot of work. it would require dedicated people. but I know there’s still a lot of dedicated players throughout various countries in the world. there’s people who don’t post here and don’t post on 3SJ but still love the game. we’re fragmented into like 10 different small subsections. I’m willing to try this but I dunno how anyone else feels about it. I think we could be doing a lot better than we are doing though and there’s no reason we can’t.
and I don’t think the vf comparison is valid. I can speak more for Tekken but they have not neutered it at its core. Backdash cancel is still there which is why a veteran should destroy a scrub even in the newer games (though it is still guilty of adding elements that favor bad habits due to lessened risk /reward).
Sf4 outright removed critical systems to the game and replaced them with shitty ones. Neutering the game at its very core and creating something loosely masquerading as a “sequel”.
using good Japanese players is not a strong excuse. I’d still say the vast majority of top 3s players did not transition to 4. Daigo openly states he likes sf4 primarily for the fame it has brought him. Only really momochi, tokido, and haitani come immediately to mind (and it appears haitani may have quit).
and nickleback does suck and people that listen to them are people I certainly don’t want to associate with
I had to acknowledge this beyond liking the post or whatever. Most people who play 3rd really don’t consider what a different game 3s is than other fighters.
I think you missed my point. I’m certainly not defending the game’s quality, I already stated that I don’t like it. That is irrelevant. I’m just saying, how are you qualified to say one game has more complexity or ‘competitive integrity’ than the other when you haven’t reached the skill ceiling of either game in the comparison?
probably, but they were also quite a bit older than sf4 came out. after you’ve invested thousands of hours into one fighting game, you might not want to start that process over again no matter what the game is. i know personally i can’t put in the same amount of time into any new fighting game no matter how great it is that i could when i was 19. so i wouldn’t assume the few amount of top 3s players that transitioned to sf4 means they all just detested the game so much.
i must again bring up ST, because you can make a similar point about the very few number of top 3rd players who were st powerhouses. it really doesn’t mean anything. each iteration of sf seems to breed a new generation of top players and thats cool.
i urge people to be more positive. lets be good ambassadors for 3rd.
Ishiwatari has said that it’s “slower” and “easier”. Clearly, this means “snail-paced” and “purpose-built for drooling morons” (if your average dustlooper is to be believed)
To no surprise, so hilariously wrong it hurts. Accessible just means it’s easy to get started and to do things with intent, not that the design is bad. Look at Melee. A really fast neutral game, the sky as the limit to benefits gained from good execution, but it’s really easy to get started because you don’t have to learn voodoo to do simple things like throwing fireballs. It ends up working out beautifully because it was designed that way from the get go instead of taking a more niche/hardcore skeleton and dumbifying it in an attempt to lure in casuals.
'012er here, living that poverty game life because the games are better.
O_o
Most VF people I’ve seen like Final Showdown. Sure, many may like 4 better but they’re still all too happy to play FS because at its heart it’s still VF.
This seems like a really damn strange statement to me. Elaborate please? Statements like these just look like special snowflakeism to me.
