Of course they will keep doing strawmen arguments and red herrings. They also won’t respond to your argument because they can’t refute it. No, you’ll get stuff like this:
Because we all know, 3P is the height of the metagame and mapping it or not clearly separates the daigos from the scrubs.
Also, I chuckle at how everyone keeps comparing 3P and 3K to macros like mapping combos/supers to a button or directional inputs like 360’s, which is totally different.
good point. SF is a mental game more than anything, the ability to execute well is a bonus.
Its like people completely ignore the fact that people are indeed human and miss things. A computer controlled multiple button press will never miss. Ever. That in itself is an advantage.
So I only came into this thread since my browser was skewed and SRK displayed the latest post in Fighting Game Discussion as:
“3 in 1 butt…”
^^^^
:lol: Couldn’t pass on that opportunity eh?
Personally I think times have changed and I think something like mapping buttons is tough to regulate until more official tourneys spring up for the game and those are the accepted rules. Like a big hometown tournament like Final Round has very arcadey roots and there’s specific rules against mapping buttons but you know there’s always the scrub player or two who will map buttons early in the tourney just to get away with it. At Evo there isn’t even an official rule for it like stated earlier which I’m assuming is mainly because there’s just simply too much gray area to regulate it.
I think mapped buttons will stay the way they are. Legal for majority of tourneys but simply soft banned. Frowned upon when someone places in a high position using a button mapped for multiple buttons. The respect issue would simply pressure a button mapper to learn what the other top players have been doing or face the heat.
Exactly, people already gave the example with Gief and how macro removes execution barriers.
First people argue for PPP/KKK macro, then a new system will have “extra” buttons and therefore the console port will allow you to map qcf + p/k to any button. Before you know it, there won’t be any people playing, it’ll all be just a bunch of bots and people using them complaining that they don’t have time nor the ability to learn how to play/execute and that people who know how to play should just stfu and use macros.
Wow, way to overreact.
Lets accept that PPP is an advantage, excatly what is that advantage?
When we talked to players about the issue, their response was that they miss PPP (compared to P) somewhere between never and almost never. How much do we care about a advantage that is between 0 and near 0.
SF4 raises an exception to this rule, since ultras overlap supers, you can definately miss PPP and get PP. Players still generally agree that is NOT a test of skill, but a design flaw that is actually balanced by their inclusion of the PPP macro for console.
So this ‘advantage’ is in reality, is either 1) none, 2) negligable, or 3) a counterbalance to a different flaw that was also designed into the game.
Now to enforce this issue, you would have to do the following:
Hard ban, which would require all players to change their controls to non-default, for no reason other than to comply with the ban, probably also resulting in DQs for lots of top players as they forget to do so.
Soft bans, which are ridiculous and should never be a topic in a competitive scene.
There have been many hours spent discussing theoretical super players with instant roll cancels and perfect lariats. Years of tournaments have shown that these macros do not significantly affect the skill or the strategies used, so I am comfortable with the decision.
My question is whether tournament directors are going to be comfortable DQ’ing high level players because they use the default control scheme?
With SF4 you guys can do whatever you want, I’m just not going to play against macro kids.
In Marvel, I know if it was grand finals and one player was doing the ROM when the other player has only a pixel of life Magneto left and messes up (which is common) because he pressed only one punch and not two at the same time for the air dash and then his opponent catches him and ROM’s him to 40 hits whick kills him, I know there would be a SERIOUS problem.
I know that gaming nowadays is more about casuals and not really about competition, and that in most other areas where people live arcades are pretty much dead, so I’m not going to bother with the arcade defense.
Although I can tell you that Japan is going to be laughing at the US for using macros, but then again, no one will care.
^-- That is excellent feedback. Considering that Evo explicitly allowed that button-mapping for MvC2 in the rules, though, you would likely be laughed out of town.
I don’t see the Evo2k9 rules published yet, but don’t know why they’d change from allowing that.
Why?
If your macro using opponent beat you then it sure as hell wasn’t the macro that lead to it.
Or are you going to be butt hurt that your opponent isn’t following some inane tradition that messes with your ‘code of honor’ or some shit?
Way to go guy.
Bring up an example in a game they don’t give a shit about, and then fail to realize that they don’t give a shit about our competitive scene either.
This is in reference to SF4 and 3S, etc, guess I had to clarify for people who can’t comprehend the point.
Point in had, people in the US care so much about Japan and top level gaming, so stop being macro scrubs and step your shit up.
They still don’t care~
There is absolutely nothing scrubby about using these macros.
If you think there is, get your head of your ass.
I read that magneto doesn’t deserve to win anyway, so who cares!
Anyway, you haven’t described an actual problem with the tournament, you described a player that lost to something he doesn’t like.
The macro in question did not significantly alter the strategy or skill required in a match, if both players were not using macros, the first player would have still dropped his combo, which was the game-changing mistake.
Now lets take a case of a banned mechanic: hardware macros. As opposed to the PP button which might affect a 1 pixel match 1% of the time, the hardware macro would significantly alter the play between any two high level players and turn impractical setups into common tactics. Those types of situations need tournament intervention.
If a PPP button upsets someone, I don’t see how they could have played in arcade tournaments with “I press the button and nothing happens” and “I try to walk forward and jump instead” macros.
Man, YieAirKungFu, you’re sounding really butt hurt about this.
I mean, have you ever lost to a player SOLELY because he mapped his buttons a certain way and NOT because of his skill? No.
Software button Macros of all kinds are allowed at EVO.
Tekken calls it “button shouldering”, where throws and the diagonal face buttons are mapped to the triggers. If is allowed in Tekken/Soul Calibur, it is allowed in other games.
If I would have gone to EVO last year, I would have mapped a roll button in CvS2. It’s there in the options menu. I doubt I would have done any better, but why not map it?
In SF4, the only in game macros are PPP, KKK, Throw, Focus, Personal Action. I suppose you could map throw to make kara throwing easier… but kara throws are easy to get 100%.
These games, when played at their best, are NOT about execution. It’s about strategy and gameplan. Why do you think Sirlin actively dumbed down the commands and inputs in SFHD?
“The game shouldn’t be about IF I can pull off Hooligan/ChickenWing/FlashKick Super… but WHEN i pull them off”
He also made all 3 button press moves 2 buttons. With only one detriment (balrog’s turn punch glitch not allowing him to neg edge dash uppers) anywho.
If pad players need to use button mapping to compete, then let them use it.
If pad players can use it, there is no reason to disallow sticks to do the same thing.
All is fair, Everyone’s on the same playing field.
Guess I’ll need to add two buttons to the custom stick I’ll be getting made soon.
Adding the macros is just a way to allow execution scrubs to make less mistakes but if they want to abuse them on pad there’s no reason why a stick can’t either then.
Is that correct?
Hopefully Capcom will go back to using double direction input instead of double button input (ie: qcf qcf p).
Why are you so offended by it?
It’s downright comical how distraught you (and many others) are over the notion.
They have both, what they need to do is make sure moves don’t overlap each other and actually hold a damn controller in their hands when they make the game in the first place. There really is zero reason for a game that is released on a console to be needlessly biased towards an interface that does not come with the game or the system in question as a standard input device.
If people really think execution is that important they ought to drop all pretense of the “meta-game” being important at all since the true determining factor of success is physical dexterity rather than strategy or tactics. They damn sure better not attempt to compare fighting games to chess which has no execution barrier intentional or otherwise.
Master Chibi I think some people get offended because this whole discussion points out a design flaw common in many fighting games, and also means that so called top players may not be top players purely because of skill but also because the game engines are made in such a way as to favor those with superior twitch reflexes.
Think of it this way Shaq is a great basketball player, in fact one of the greatest in the world. However what is also true is that he is not one of the greatest players of his era solely because he has superior skill or “basketball sense” he is in the upper eschalon mostly because amongst those that can even dare to play at that level he is physically stronger than many of them.
This prospect offends some people in this thread because they would like to think that they are as good as they are because of superior “game sense” or superior skill at the game rather than think that their abilities may in reality be more genetic/somatic.
i dunno but i played a guy named the boogieman using 1BD on dreamcast and he said it was cheap. then he proceeded to rape me with msp even though he knew i didn’t play the damn game. lol
Something else to consider: Boxer can charge a TAP while still having access to all 3 Punches/Kicks with the macro.
If you set your buttons up so that L1 is 3K instead of 3P and L2 is 3P instead of 3K, conceivably you can rest your pinky on a TAP button and the rest of your fingers on the buttons in that row. If someone had to hold 3 buttons down to charge TAP it gets considerably harder to hit the other buttons.