The correct quote is: “The command is irrelavant as long as it takes the same amount of time to execute”, maybe an earlier verson of the post left that out, i don’t remember. Simplifying a fireball to a button press changes how it’s used.
OTOH, if they decide to allow (or even DEFAULT) buttons to be PPP, there is no pressing reason to overturn it. Like I said earlier, it’s not a significant difference. When there were arcades, we traveled and used what they programmed into the arcade machine, we did not ‘decide what the right commands are’. Similarly on console, there is no reason to go an redesign what the controls are, especially when macros for PPP are becoming the default. It’s not our fault that arcade machines don’t have 8 buttons.
It’s not Capcom’s choice that the XBox/PS3 has 8 buttons but they damn sure better make all of them do something or everyone would complain. MVC2 has Turbo and Normal mode in arcade, why don’t I get to choose normal in tourneys I mean it’s in the arcade. If I come to your HDRemix tournament can I choose speed 1, they must have put it in there for a reason, it’s not my fault you play better with the speed faster, it sure does help my execution though I can hit that Bison touch of Death combo like 95% when the game doesn’t move so damn fast. My joystick has extra buttons that I just wired together for homemade macros, not my fault you can’t hardwire your pad. There’s an option for infinite time, it’s in the same menu you can set the controls on, infinite time at EVO? Or come to a SF4 tourney on an official Capcom machine, you know the one made to play SF4? Oh no macros, not my fault this is the way the game was intended to be played.
They only put macros in the game because there were 2 extra buttons and it helps casual players push 3 buttons at the same time on their POS X-Box controllers.
Yiearkungfu you really ought not to use straw men to back up a pathetically weak argument. All that has been said is that if the option is already a part of the game there is no reason to disallow it. It does not really give an advantage over another player just outright pressing 3 buttons at the same time, it’s really a matter of preference what you use when talking about arcade sticks.
One solution is to simply use a different motion input for the move and a single button. (Any button.) Doing this would eliminate the need for PPP/KKK macros on pads not to mention free up those buttons for other things. Not to mention that the physical layout of the buttons would simply never become an issue.
BTW no I don’t play Smash bros I haven’t had a Nintendo Console since SNES.
For fucks sake, we’re not using the god-like Saturn pads anymore. If I have to play a game, where my buttons are separated to triggers and not lain face out for me, then its suitable that the other triggers be assigned PPP and KKK. You can’t compare the arcade layout to the console settings, it just doesn’t work.
It’s not a part of the game anything more then anything else in the options menu, that was my point. Changing arcade layouts is easy, see Tekken. If Capcom wanted SF to be played on 8 buttons the arcade machine would have had 8 buttons. CVS2:EO comes default in one button super mode that doesn’t mean that’s how it is supposed to be played. XBOX 360 has 8 buttons, if you make an Xbox 360 game you should have all the buttons do something because pressing a button and nothing happening is not a good look. That is why we shouldn’t start playing 8 button SF. The community has decided to go this long playing as close to arcade perfect as possible for a reason and you don’t see your arguments are the weakest ones.
FACTS:
1: Street Fighter 1-4 were released in arcades as 6 button games. Capcom made a custom setup for Street Fighter 4 instead of releasing kits to convert existing cabs and pushed operators to buy the official machines. If they wanted 8 buttons there would be 8 buttons.
2: Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo for example is clearly meant to be a 6 button game as it was released before 8 button pads, yet when 2 extra buttons became available they were defaulted to PPP and KKK when ST was ported to PS2. They have to do something with the extra buttons. Macros appeal to 99% of casual gamers, Capcom probably sells 99% of their product to casual gamers.
3: At high levels of play every frame matters and their are 60 frames a second in most games. Being able to press 3 buttons in 1 frame (read in 1/60th of a second) 100% of the time is impossible on 3 buttons, so there’s an advantage right there.
:tdown:
Once again why am I arguing this with someone who has no idea what they are talking about. If you want to have your friends over and play SF4 do whatever you want. I don’t want to be watching some EVO video one year and see someone do a near impossible combo and be like, “OMG AMAZING” then find out he had a custom stick with macro buttons on it. I might as well be trying to explain this to you in Korean though since I doubt you know what frames, roll cancel, triangle jump, TAP or anything relevant to this conversation so far even means. To high level players a button that pushes PPP would be about like if you had a button that did shoryukens. People will eventually abuse it and nothing sounds less fun then broken street fighter on macro sticks with 10 buttons on XBox 4.
As far as shitty pads go, are you really going to roll up in a tourney with an XBox official pad? That thing is so garbage for fighting games. 6 button face controller is okay, stick is best, no macros.
Yiearkungfu exactly nothing in that wall of text matters because A. If the console version of any fighting game happens to have those macros and that is the version being used in a tournament then there is no reason to disallow it.
B. if you are using the arcade version, this entire question is irrelevant.
C. No one has perfect execution, it’s not hard at all to position the fingers to press 3 buttons simultaneously on an arcade stick 99% of the time. Trying to make up magical advances where none exists does not help your argument.
Interestingly enough I decided to perform a little experiment with my keyboard to see how well I could press three buttons with my right hand fingers and my left hand fingers. I was not very good at all with my right hand as two of my fingers on my right hand tend to curl up and become useless. Where I using an arcade stick with one of the standard right hand button layouts I would probably never be able to do PPP consistently without using macros with my right hand just because I could never get my fingers into place in time. With my left hand I have no problem pressing three keys at the same time as my left hand is far more flexible than my right hand.
They shouldn’t really allow you to map that to 1 button…The reason it used 3 three buttons is that it becomes a little bit harder to execute…but if they allow you to use just one button it just totally defeats the purpose…
This is the same arguments that go on for FPS shooters like TF2. Valve put in the ability to use macros, so there are both sides to the argument. Except, TF2’s macros can be made to do a lot of things, such as rapid pistol shots, auto duck jump, reload scripts, etc.
Even though they aren’t exactly in the same class, either way, this argument will never reach a conclusion. It’s all going to depend on the tourney leaders’ decisions. You’ll just have to deal with it. Sorry for steering it off course. Personally, I try to avoid using those extra button mappings, but I do use them on occasion with a pad. I don’t play in tournaments though, since it’s out of my league.
I was against macros because to me fighters are never just a game of “choices”. There’s usually an execution barrier and meter cost in the original arcade design because a move or combo is suppose to require a certain amount of effort to perform imo. When it comes to straight up tournament play, I agree with YieAr and the anti-macro camp: frames count, inputs count and the effort it takes to do something “should” be proportionate to its risk/reward factor (hopefully, otherwise most people will probably see it as a flaw in the game’s design). Your ability to out-think your opponent AND out-manuever him (via execution) all factor into your overall skillset for a fighting game.
I was already convinced by his Zangief (no PPP or KKK macros) vs Zangief (PPP + KKK macro) example for SF4. But here’s another common one where it would make a world of difference in tournament play:
Combo into Shoryu-> FADC-> Ultra
Just for fun, let’s say you were in a situation where you were at your last pixel of health in a tournament and this combo would give you just enough damage to make a comeback and win the match. You’ve just managed to land the shoryu. Now’s your chance to end it and claim victory.
If you mess up (yes most of us can still mess up, that’s why we practice it) you’ll probably get either an EX fireball or Shoryu at the end of the combo. That’s less damage, burned meter and now your opponent is absolutely sure about what you’re trying to set up. The pressure’s on… good luck trying to land it now.
If you had a PPP mapped, you wouldn’t have to worry that much about the last part. But you’d be damn sure people would cry foul if they knew you were using that when there’s money and tournament ranking on the line. 'Better put your hater blockers on and just walk away, I guess.:rolleyes:
Fighting games are still programmed to work with 4-6 buttons. I believe 8 buttons with optional macros were designed for console casuals, not console tournaments. Extra buttons should be ignored during a tournament match. Otherwise, why can’t we use the pause button as part of our strategy in tournaments?
Even if the arcade cabinet had a controller port for PS2 and 360 controllers, what if it didn’t let you remap the controls and you could still only use the original 6 buttons? What then? It’s not like you can’t still do everything that’s available in the game. It just means that you, as a player, are going to have to practice pulling it off no matter how many fingers you have. Yet I still see pad warriors still do well without macro assistance.
Step it up. We can “play for fun” on the weekdays.
I can only chuckle at this, because I could easily say (which I already have implicitly.) that all the people who would cry because you used the macro need to step up their game.
This whole thing is retarded would you complain if someone at a tournament for a console shooter like COD4 decided to use the left handed layout which would make it possible to move and change subweapons at the same time? (Of course the left handed configuration which is usually refered to as southpaw makes it impossible to move and reload, switch weapons, or jump at the same time.)
People’s hands and their abilities with their hands are all different, that the game gives people some flexibility with how they control the game is not a bad thing in tournaments or “casual play.” If we want to go down this road why not simply decide on a standard controller? It’s my understanding that many tournaments are bring your own controller. If someone wants to hate on someone for using a macro that is in the version of the game being used in the tournament which is not banned by the tournament rules, they should shower an equal amount of hate on people who make sticks/controllers with custom layouts. It’s not as if button layouts don’t affect certain types of moves that people actually use because they are more or less comfortable to perform.
You keep missing the point several times in the thread. I understand that some feel certain controller layouts (for example: a default console pad that wasn’t really designed with fighters in mind) will make it harder for them to pull of certain things in any given game. Many have testified to it, that much is known already. But the fact is the original game is still designed so that you can do everything with 4-6 buttons for most games. All it takes is practice. I’ve already pulled off PPP and KKK Ultra setups several times on pad and I don’t even play pad. Just took a couple minutes of practice with each respective character. I know other players who can do it too consistently.
Controller layout is not what I’m against here. They even built controllers similar to the Saturn pad layout to help fighting game players who prefer d-pad but feel awkward hitting both trigger and face buttons at the same time during a combo (which I still think is the appropriate amount of difficulty based on what I tried).
I don’t care what layout you use as long as its kept down to the 4-6 attack button arcade default (no macros). With that you can still mess up whether you’re using a PS2/360 pad, a stick, or some other contraption that someone’s gonna give you weird looks about (your fingers can slip or you can hit the wrong buttons all together… typical human error that is decreased with macro assistance). That’s why we practice not messing up so we can compete.
If someone only played an SNK game at the arcade with only 4 buttons then went to a tournament where the game was on console with a 4 button controller or stick and then gets matched up against a player with a 8 button controller or stick and sees that player mapping his extra buttons to some macros, then he’s gonna argue that’s some BS because he knows he’s at a disadvantage. If there’s console exclusive characters and he sees them being picked he’s also gonna feel at a disadvantage (not going to get into that here… that’s a different discussion for a different thread).
Obviously the rules should be laid out and understood before the tournament starts. But this is exactly the type of thing that’s being discussed for several tournaments and there’s usually a divide before a standard is agreed upon. Ultimately it’ll be up to the tournament directors to decide the rules for their tournament and it’ll be up to the players/community to decide whether they’ll participate/take it seriously. I’m merely presenting which side I’m on and my opinion when this type of question gets brought up.
Funny, because I seem to think ShadowSkill and a few others are the only ones that really do seem to get the point, and the only ones that actually back up their arguments.
I love my arcade experience as much as the next guy, but your wall text tells me basically, you think using three fingers to activate part of a command, rather than one equates experience/skill/overcoming a higher level. Which is crap.
You keep talking about the original game. The original game runs on an arcade board, and the hardware/controls that run with it. We’re discussing console hardware. You can not compare the two. Mapping PPP and qcf+P to a button is not an equivalent comparison. That’s the same as saying allowing me to more easily accommodate my control for Zangief’s Lariats is as advantageous as mapping Guile’s sonic booms to the push of a button.
Bah, you even use an arcade scenario for your example, which is completely irrelevant. Why would we even be discussing this, if we were playing at the arcade, where the situation is literally built into the hardware and beyond our control. Not to mention the button layout is quite different.
Seriously, if you bitch about someone using PPP and KKK on their controller, and you lose, no they don’t have an unfair advantage, you just suck.
BTW, I use both. A variety of controllers, and saturn ASCII arcade stick. And the only reason I finally got the stick is because it was on sale for twenty bucks.
Stop trying be elitist and looking for ways to place yourself over other players of the community.
You have to be a complete scrub not only to not see why the mapping of multiple punches/kicks to one is broken but also a complete scrub to complain about not being able to execute several punches/kicks at the same time. Seriously, stop being a macro scrub and step your game up.
Depending on the game you’re playing, the mapping will allow you to never mess up a ground dash, air dash (or tri jump), super/ultra, throw, etc.
Hell, if you’re allowed to macro and remove execution barriers why can’t I? Also for the record, lets use Marvel for example, a macro air dash is A LOT, I mean A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT more broken than a simple fireball macro, trijumps/infinites/setups/etc for free all day.
I feel like most people posting here supporting the mapping have never really played any real fighting games beyond in their own room and just think they’re good and just don’t want to spend time to learn how to actually play so they prefer to just use the mapping for the free execution gain.
This is definitely a two sided issue that I’m not going to take just one side. On one hand you might want to use the button layout of the arcade game (that is what I do for the most part). On ther other hand, you might want to make some game mechanics/moves/whatever easier (that is ok too).
Also on the other hand, there are many great gamers out there that are physically disabled, like my friend CJ81. We play many fighters and have great matches. He generally sets button maps for certain game functions, since he only has one hand to use. He is one of the best players around here.
