How would one have an advantage gameplay wise if they made PPP on 1 button or KKK on 1 button? They would have an execution advantage, but gameplay wise it wouldn’t make a differece.
@ NegativeSaint
Play it however you want to play it, but if you go to an arcade you’ll notice a difference… but if you’re never going to arcades with SF4 cabs then map it however you want!
Yeah thats what I figured Canto, but living in the northeast, I think the closest SFIV cab is in Pennsylvania. I really don’t feel like making the drive out there now that the game has a permanent place in my 360. Plus most tournies (even EVO right?) will be using the console release rather than having cabs on site right?
insert “pics or it never happened” post here
Umm no not at all, I used stick cuz I wanted to try to beat yipes with a stick…Pad has ridiculous disadvantages and weighing them out I went with that stick as it was really close in feel to an arcade stick. Marvel hate is irrevocable so switching it wouldn’t make a difference.
My thread:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=179454&highlight=Macros
Street Fighter IV thread:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?p=6234153
It is allowed in EVO in all games by the way as you probably figured out.
Edit: I’m a pad player and so far I gave into the macro use of 3K and 3P. It wasn’t a problem in the older games because most of the time you can just use 2 punches, but Ultras have to be done with 3 so oh well. I’m still kind of stuck between “keep it old school” and use macros but EVO allows it and it is the default setting for SF IV. You can’t tell someone not to use the default settings for SF IV…
Saying you cannot use the macros that are in the game already, would be like saying someone could not use a stick with the joystick and button placement swapped around so the right hand controls the stick and the left hand presses the buttons. You wouldn’t want to give a left handed player an advantage when pressing buttons would you?
I totally agree that you should not be allowed to use turbo and such (Unless of course there is some weird fighting game that actually had this option in the game itself. Then it would be up for debate.) but there is no reason to disallow 3p/3k macros when they are present in the game.
For your first point, not relevant. There are still the same buttons for everyone regardless of where the stick is located.
For your second point I disagree. Imagine a world where CVS2 and MVC2 get re-released on XBOX360. Now as you know the Dreamcast has 6 buttons and MVC2 and CVS2 have 6 buttons in the arcade, no problem, you want macros you lose assits or MP or whatever right? Now say they re-release on 360 arcade prefect, first off fuck yes that would be awesome, second though there’s a problem.
See 360 has 8 buttons so you can have the regular 6 then 2 for macros. Okay still don’t see the problem? Well if you can have extra buttons on your pad who says I can’t have them on my stick? So I break out my drill and put 2 buttons above MP & HP. Now I can macro those into MVC2 and set left to dash and right to HK. Now I pick Storm and Magneto… Uh oh. Now the stick player has a major advantage in that he can piano in triangle jumps, HP and HK are right there next to dash. Storm and Magneto infinites/crossups/triangles just got about 5 times easier.
Now it’s time to play CVS2 on 360. Same button setup but now dash is roll instead. Oh hey lets 2 button piano in some Roll Cancels, that’s not an advantage. [/sarcasm]
Anyways I think this needs to be said…
EXTRA BUTTON MACROS ARE NOT MADE FOR THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WHO PLAY IN COMPETITIVE FIGHTING GAME TOURNAMENTS FOR MONEY THEY ARE MADE FOR THE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO DON’T!!!
It’s called making a game accessible. Imagine some 12 year old kid buys street Fighter 4. “Oh so I push all three Punches to teleport, well I’ll just set this useless 7th button on my pad to push all 3 Punches instead of RTrigger + X + Y” <goes into menu> SORRY KID YOU ONLY GET 6 BUTTONS LIKE IN THE ARCADE CAUSE THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS, OH AND 2 BUTTONS ON YOUR PAD DON’T DO ANYTHING WHEN YOU HIT THEM.
That would be retarded, but when it’s me vs. you in the finals and winner gets $100, it is serious business. If we are face to face in a Zangief mirror match with a sliver of life, we both get knocked down and wakeup next to each other, first one to do the Spinning Lariat wins. You are jamming the PPP and KKK buttons on your pad furiously getting double the chances for a reversal Lariat, or charging a TAP in ST while easily using punch, or tapping PPP to get the first 3 inputs of electricity or handslap. I call that an unfair advantage.
So actually setting up a move and knowing when to execute do not matter now? There are in fact people in this world that are not comfortable with pressing 3 buttons at the same time for what ever reason, I see no reason why they should not be able to take advantage of an option already a part of the game that allows them to play comfortably because a few people think that doing so somehow impacts the skill aspect of things negatively.
It’s not as if a 3 button macro would allow you to do a single move forever like a turbo button would. Trying to argue that said macro gives a real advantage during competitive play is just like trying to argue that a player using a different hand from you along with an exotic layout is going to give that player a distinct and unfair advantage.
Heck in the stick love thread I saw pictures of a guy who layed out the buttons to match how is hand naturally rests (It was so friggin awesome.) are you going to complain that he does not have to actually move his button and up or down a row to perform various moves because of his layout?
I never played Marvel vs Capcom or Capcom vs SNK, but I can’t help but think that if a game breaks so easily when you make relatively minor adjustments to the button layout there is something seriously wrong with the game itself. Heck I have started to notice moves like Honda’s hand slap and Chun-Li’s Lightning Kick cannot be turned into an infinite corner trap because the game HDR and SF4 will push those characters back. Thus lessening the impact anyone using turbo or posessing inhuman stamina will have with those characters.
The arcade has the standard setup.
Since most controllers have extra buttons and to make it easier for beginners to pick up fighting games, console ports allow extra functionality such as mapping two punches to a single button. Another example is beginner mode in MvC1 for the PS1.
Now, unless you’re just a random scrub, you shouldn’t be using macros, and I apologize to all the scrubs out there that aren’t macro scrubs.
3P and 3K buttons are scrubby, they remove any chance to mess up a lariat or ultra button input, or even an EX. Even players on stick need to put in extra effort to make sure they hit all 3 buttons at the correct timing, that input is really sensitive on some games and it is possible to mess up. Those attacks are powerful and deserve the risk of being screwed up by people that do not want to practice.
I really don’t think it’s about beginners and non beginners. It’s actually just physically harder to do PPP/KKK type presses on most pads because of how the buttons are laid out.
Do you play Smash? I’ll cut you some slack for being new to SRK.
Pressing PPP/KKK isn’t supposed to be as easy as just P/K, it’s supposed to require more practice and just one of the things that will separate beginners from players that have more experience.
If you are playing in tournaments you shouldn’t use macros. They will never be allowed at any tournament I run. If you are going to take the game seriously I feel you should be playing the game the way it was meant to be played(with 6 buttons on Capcom games, 4 on SNK). If I can press multiple buttons on a pad or a stick so should everyone else. It may take practice. Its very possible.
The macros were put in game for casual people, Not us who take the game seriously.
This. This is why Ultras and EX moves do more damage and have better recovery/properties. They are SUPPOSED to be harder to do, so they have larger reward.
If you’re playing on stick you can hit nearly all the buttons since you’re using your damn hand. On pad you’re using literally TWO fingers to do everything with. I cannot for the life of me do hop B st.C fwd+B BC with Geese on pad. I NEED to map BC to R1 to be able to activate BC in a combo.
Everyone else can do it because they play on stick. It’s really easy to hit BC on a stick.
Ever tried to FRC on a pad in GG? I had to change the config so that HS was R1 and Dust was R2 and circle did nothing.
I can’t activate CC’s on pad in Alpha 2. You’ll never see me pull out MAX mode in KOF 98 or 2k2 because I cannot. Without ABC or BC mapped to one button I’m screwed. I could learn the damn MAX cancel combos but that means nothing since I can’t activate MAX mode in the first place.
Mapping doesn’t give an advantage to pad players. Everyone can learn to play on a stick but not everyone can hit multiple buttons on a damn pad. It’s not like I’m mapping a whole combo here.
If PPP/KKK is mapped to one button in SFIV, the player won’t start landing Ultras left and right. Landing the move is the hard part. Trying to make it come out shouldn’t be.
You guys who play on stick have it made. More precision. 'Nuff said.
To accomodate more complex moves, consoles went from 2 buttons on the nes, to 6 on snes and a revised genesis controller, to 8 today. Arcade hardware is hard to change, so how do you create a “EX fireball” when there is already a jab/strong/fierce fireball? you make it PP… now you don’t need to change hardware.
EXs, Ultras, and supers take meter to perform, that is the drawback, the command is irrelavant (as long as it takes the same amount of time, 1 button takes the same amount of time as 3).
The idea that they are supposed to be harder to do, or even that they are intended to be harder to do, is completely ridiculous and i challenge someone to actually prove this claim with something more reasonable than “PPP is 0.01% more difficult for 99.9% of players, therefore it’s a meaningful determination of skill”
I’m getting a stick made with around 20 buttons.
Doing a fireball is just too hard and other players can do it so easily on pad.
To make things fair, I’m going to add a fireball button, it’s fair, like you said, “the command is irrelavant.”
For the record, if it’s just casuals or even just a friendly small tournament, then people can use their macro but if it’s a real serious event, macros are banned.
What the hell does moving buttons or joysticks around have to do with having extra buttons?
You’ve never played MVC2 or CVS2 and you just realized hundred hand slap is not a corner infinite. What are you arguing about? Have you ever played in a tournament for money? I really am getting the impression this argument doesn’t apply to you. If you play at home do whatever you want. Execution is a part of the game, a big important part. If you can’t push PPP at the same time without a macro and you play for money there is something wrong with you or your controller. The problem isn’t the kid who wants to play SF4 in a tourney for fun being able to Lariat with triggers on his pad, it’s when 2 people who are pushing the limits of a game are playing in the top 8 and one of them has found an advantage by using a macro button he fixed into his stick. What happens then? I can give you hundreds of hypothetical ways this could come up but what’s the point?
No Street Fighter 4 WAS NOT MADE TO BE PLAYED WITH MACROS ON A PAD IT WAS MADE TO BE PLAYED ON AN ARCADE WITH JOYSTICKS & 6 BUTTONS, THAT IS WHY IT CAME OUT IN ARCADES ON JOYSTICKS AND THEY RELEASED A SPECIAL JOYSTICK WHEN IT CAME OUT ON CONSOLE. Allcaps for emphasis. When a controller has 8 buttons they damn sure are going to use all of them, otherwise casual players would be super pissed. 99% of fighting games are made to be played in an arcade, that’s why they release them in arcades first. Smash Brothers was made for a pad. If XBox had 27 buttons they would map all of them or average joes would feel cheated. If you need macros to not be terrible at the game no one really is worried about that but if you let the worst player use macros you have to let the best player use macros, that’s the problem. Not that amateurs can execute things that people with good execution can execute with less hassle but that people with good execution can now do things that only people with godly execution should be able to do.
See I’m talking about top level things that could be abused and make or break international competitions involving pressing multiple buttons combinations and joystick inputs in 20ths of a second, you are talking about it being hard to press 3 buttons at the same time. This doesn’t really apply to you.
EDIT- Yeah agree with above post, I’m talking about serious events not you and 10 friends playing 60/40 on a $50 pool.
EDIT2=
Everyone can learn to play on a stick you say? It’s superior to a pad? Why aren’t you playing on a stick? Problem solved.
The real problem is if you let pad players use macros you have to let stick users use them too. I mean you don’t get an advantage for using an inferior controller. Stick players can abuse macros easier, ban macros in serious tourneys. Sure it shouldn’t be hard to make ultras come out but it should be hard to do things like triangle jump infinites, roll cancels, start a classic ST handslap in 2/3 button presses, and charge TAP while still using all 3 punches with purpose. Macros make these things easier, especially for stick users.
It really sounds like you haven’t tried very hard. In Alpha 2 you can activate CC by pressing LP and LK with your thumb and using the one of the triggers to do the final button needed(Punch or kick).
Your thumb can press more than one button at once. It seems like a lot of people haven’t realized this yet. I’ve had to constantly tell friends who play on pad how to hit multiple buttons at the same time. You can hit everything on the face of the controller with your thumb(yes,all four buttons,they are pretty close together), then you have the triggers for the last buttons.
Regardless of where B and C are mapped you can hit BC with your thumb.
What you just told me is the SAME thing I did in GG to FRC. I use Square, X, R1 to FRC and believe me I tried the same thing with CC’s in Alpha 2. I have managed to pull it off a few times in training. In match? Never. Believe me I have tried. I still cannot do it 100% not even 50% of the time. I still practice it almost everyday.
Some games give you more leeway when it comes to hitting multiple buttons. Some need that exact timing.
It’s not that you absolutely cannot hit multiple buttons. Yeah I have managed to hit all 4 surface buttons before. Nameless’ drill SDM in 2002UM needs that to work, but I have a low success rate with that.