2D vs. 3D

<blockquote> Notice:

For the faint-of-heart, dandies, pimpernels, pretenders, hard-heads and the other subspecies of scrubs- were starting to tackle a biggish question this week, and the going gets a little rough. This will be your only warning. Try and keep up…

When you think about it, its kinda strange that the 2d games have managed to hang around (much less remain superior) for as long as they have. It seems like the advent of 3d fighters should have really blown them out of the water. How could their characters’ vastly more complex movement not add up to a better game?

Of course part of the answer is that the first generation of “3d” games (like Virtua Fighter 1) were hardly 3d at all. Although the characters were rendered in 3 dimensions, the actual fighting took place almost entirely along a single plane, just like the old 2d. That, coupled with the minimized role of jumping, actually resulted in less of a real range of motion. The only thing actually 3d about these games was the camera.

Coming from the other direction, 2d games also had (and has had, since the beginning) genuinely 3d elements- not so much graphically as in terms of gameplay. For instance, when Cammy does a spinning backfist through a fireball, from a gameplay perspective, its as though shes moving (at least in part) in the third dimension, effectively sidestepping the attack. There are obviously lots of examples of this kind of rudimentary 3d stuff in 2d games, and they were the better for it.

So the initial explanation of why 3d didnt wipe 2d out immediately was that 3d wasnt really 3d, and 2d was more like “2d plus”. But that explanation wont get you very far today. Modern Tekken, VF, and Soul Calibur all boast truly 3d motion, and the 2d games havent really changed much at all. And yet 2d remains an interesting, viable format for great games. What gives?

Usually, when people attempt to weigh in on the side of 2d against 3d games, they repeat some vague nonsense about better “style”, or embarrass themselves by trying to complain about 10-chains (so stupid). I, however, think that theres something real to be said on the subject. I even have a theory. (editor’s note: big surprise) Its a theory about what makes Street Fighter so damned good. Its a very simple one. What makes Street Fighter so good is not the animation. Its not the sound. Its not the artwork, or the character personalities, or even the combos. So what is it then? Its the fireball. Thats what fundamentally sets it apart. This isnt to say, of course, that everything else doesnt make critical contributions to the overall package- obviously its all important. But if you want to reduce what makes SF stand out (in a now crowded field) to its very essence, thats my candidate for the best answer. Fireballs, baby.

The history (and greatness) of Street Fighter is deeply entwined with the history of the fireball. So much so that its usually thought of as just another “special move”; such a part of the ordinary gaming landscape that its hardly noticed (even the basic fireball motion now embodies a standard for most other specials, even in non-SF games). But I think its different. Its what defined the mechanics of good matchups for years, as well as setting the Street Fighter series apart in ways so subtle that they went unnoticed (or at least unappreciated) for years by the competitors, perhaps even by the original designers themselves in some regards.

There are at least two very cool things that fireballs do:

First, fireballs enable real combat at a distance. The game isnt restricted by how far your characters limbs reach- with a fireball, there can be real threats even from opposite ends of the screen. They control space and threaten at any range. When theres a fireball on the screen (or a beam, or worse- multiple fireballs!), it fundamentally changes the dynamic of the match. And the kind of dynamic change depends on all sorts of crazy things, including (but not limited to): how fast the fireball is moving, the size of the fireball, the angle at which its traveling, etc.

This is something thats almost entirely missing from the true 3d games. Once you get sufficiently far away, theres not a lot to do, because there just isnt anything you can really do to one another, apart from running back together. The game sort of collapses (unless getting away was the point, i.e. youre trying to turtle/run away). This is also why (when Im in one of my nastier moods) I have a problem with the SF3 series. When youre more than half a screen away (at most), theres just not much game to be played, since any projectile can be easily parried (re: it fails to control space, or to effectively threaten). Its like taking time out or something. Where before every inch gained or lost could dramatically affect the match, the only thing you can really do at a distance in the 3 series is to charge up your meter by whiffing moves (weak), or (again) just be turtling for its own sake. This adds up to a betrayal of one of the primary advantages of 2d games, and doesnt give a big enough return in terms of other tricks/fun offered up close. Tekken, VF, etc. all do a better job at making the up-close, “in your face” game interesting and complex. SF3 is a dumbed-down up-close game, minus the good parts of distance strategies in other 2d games, which is a step in the wrong direction. The universal value of parrying coupled with the disgraced role of FBs helps to contribute to an overall “flatness” in which a lot of matches consist solely of trading (the same) high-priority pokes, over and over again.

The second key role of the fireball is as a setup. A well placed fireball acts as a surrogate; an intermediary. Its an obstacle. It sets up an initial challenge that must be overcome before you have any chance to actually deal out damage to the opponent. Dealing with it can be as simple (or as hard) as avoiding it (jumping, ducking, canceling it, invincible special, etc.), but it must be dealt with, because its directly threatening you. Whether it hits, or even if blocked, its going to do damage, as well as pushing you around. It must be dealt with because it stands between you and your opponent, and no matter the beating it takes, hurting it wont alone doesnt affect him. Once away, a fireballs fate is entirely distinct from your own. This type of threat can prompt your opponent to take put themselves in more vulnerable positions (like trying to jump over it, etc.), so its a setup in that way, but in some cases, it can also be followed in, like a kind of shield (or jumped over, used to cross-up, etc.), making all sorts of otherwise untenable attack approaches possible. Its an ally that works independently.

These things put together help to explain the historically dominating tendencies of fireball characters. Fireballing gives you the power to instantly change the dynamic of the match, and safely firing one off always hands you (at least temporary) control. A fireball means youve instantly got some additional approaches/setups, as well representing the potential to do damage while not being capable of being hurt itself. While not always ranked number one (though they are often enough), fireballers usually take up the bulk of the top tier spots, and are virtually never seen slumming in the bottom tier.

So what the best 2d games (the SF series) have that the 3d games dont, is fireballs. You cant just stick fireballs into a 3d system- it would be far too easy to just dance around them. Of course 3d games also lack a lot of other random junk (and vice versa, obviously), but the fireball is the key. It enables unique, complex kinds of additional strategy that just arent there in the other games.

After talking about the greatness of fireballs, if I were to praise MVC2 as a major advance for the Versus series (as I think it is), most of you would probably think Im referring to how beam crazy it is, and that Im lumping beams in there as just another kind of fireball. After all, they look a lot the same, right? Thinking this is pretty natural. I mean, look back at X-men vs Street Fighter- Ryus super is a beam, and isnt that just a beefed-up version of his old fireball? Bzzz. A beam is a bird of a very different feather, IMO. Heres why:

Fireballs play have played two essential roles. The beam only meets one of these. Beams in MVC2 really do control space, and enable combat at a distance. But they really dont act as setups, in themselves. Thats why theyre not the full equivalent of the fireball- theyre more like the equivalent of one of Dhalsims limbs (the historically simplest example of distance combat). Thats actually a fairly decent litmus test for whether youve got an adequate FB analog- would the move be effectively the same if had just been a super version of a Dhalsim limb? One that could cut through fireballs, perhaps came out very fast, etc.? If you could effectively substitute the Dhalsim limb, its not an adequate fireball analog, and wont play the same role. You cant initiate another attack while the beam is still on screen- so it doesnt act as a setup. Firing one off commits you to it for the duration (special into super canceling decreases the degree of this commitment, but the basic point remains).

So beams are helpful as far as making the game play at a distance, which is good- ranges really matter- but this isnt the whole story. As Ive said, fireballs are also key for the way they can open up multiple options for your attack. You can do something else while the fireball is still onscreen, and threatening the opponent. This can set up a whole new world of approaches. So why if beams dont really count, and actual fireballs tend to be relatively limp by comparison, then how does MVC2 retain the advantages of the best 2d games?

Its the helper system. Yes, those friendly little pals that pop onto the screen on command. “But hey! Those things dont look like fireballs!”. Calm down, scrubby. In terms of the theoretical role they play, helpers in MVC2 are strongly analogous, and act like a sort of quasi-fireball. They constitute an attack that doesnt involve your body directly- a means of attacking from more than one angle. An attack that you can initiate, but one during which you (the point character) can still do something else while the assist continues to be a live threat. Thats the basis of complexity. Depending on the type of assist youre dealing with, they may also fill the role of enabling combat at a distance (since assists can also be, for instance, beams).

What keeps MVC2 helpers from being complete fireball analogs is that they arent a completely safe once initiated. Just surviving the initial calling process isnt enough (as opposed to a traditional fireball, where once youve recovered from activation, youre no more vulnerable than you ever are). Since your helpers can be hurt, and factor into the assessment of your overall life, they dont play quite the same role as was previously outlined. They can be protected, of course, as well as being able to heal entirely whatever damage theyve taken once off-screen, but that just serves to make things more interesting- it adds depth. Helpers in MVC1 were actually more strongly analogous to fireballs for that reason- hurting someones MVC1 helper didnt hurt them. The designers realized, however, that fireball analogs like that were too powerful- instant activation, no lag, and no threat of real punishment. Free offense. So, while they did contribute a lot to the overall complexity and created a lot of setups, the designers were forced to put a lame kind of absolute limit on how many times they could be used, lest the game degenerate entirely into helper (fireball) fests (of course, it eventually degenerated into something at least as bad, but for unrelated reasons…).

Thus, MVC2 makes real progress in reintroducing these key advantages of 2d games to the Versus series, which had previously focused excessively (if not exclusively) on pixie-ism. Pixie-style chaining and rushdowns, while cool to an extent, just arent the best (most strategic, involved) part of the SF series, or 2d games in general. While MVC2 is pretty far from perfect, the combination of beams and helpers re-establishes major 2d strengths- effective play at a distance, and the possibility of multifaceted setups and approaches.

The challenge for 3d games is to find a way to meaningfully involve a greater variety of ranges. Make the game really play when youre at a distance, instead of simply degenerating into unpunishable backdashing, etc. Do ranges matter in 3d games? Obviously they do, but not in the same ways, and not to the same degrees. The ubiquity of fireballs in SF games opens avenues for play beyond the characters themselves, and a richer game overall.

PS- Virtual On (and its successor, VOOT) seems to be the best example of a 3d game that attempts to recognize the supremely important dual values of the fireball. The best new 3d games will follow its lead.

PPS- Thanks to everyone who wrote telling me to “feel better, a******”. Youre all in my heart and prayers.

Whoa this explains why virtual on is the only 3d fighting game I’ve ever enjoyed. o_o
It’s like a huge revelation!

this guy is an idiot. there are long range attacks in tekken for every character. the rest of asia (ie. japan and korea) has chosen tekken as the fighting game of choice. only reason SF is popular in the US is that only noobs and old geezers left.

Street fighter III

I disagree about what you were saying about parries, i think there are many situations where parries work wonderfully. The Parry was a vital part of SFIII and made it possible for a comeback, and that possibility is what made SFIII the deepest of the series. But you (seem) to make it sound like it’s acceptable to shoot clouds of fireballs, like people often did in SFII. And that’s NEVER been OK. The fireball is the refuge of the N00b, they hide behind them in hopes they might keep you away, and thus; stop you from stomping them a new butthole. The parry forced these cowards to come closer and engage in the battle. The moment SFIV came out and did away with the parry system, these same cowards came back out of the woodwork, and the bad old days began anew. Now, it’s impossible to meet some retard who isn’t shooting them like crazy. And let me tell you, that focus attack is a sad replacement for the parry.
If Capcom is planning to keep the SF series going, i hope they bring back the parries. There are some of us who understood how to use them, and it added layers of strategy that SFII wasn’t capable of.
And those who couldn’t wrap their minds around the concept, well. I feel sorry for you. You couldn’t raise your game enough for SFIII and now we’re stuck with SFII.5, and Capcom is gleefully humping the corpse of SFII. At this rate, we’ll be replaying the same game for generations to come.

I know what you mean. Just the other day, I beat this dude online on T6 by doing a Sonic Boom with Kazuya as they were running at me.

I can understand if you don’t like zoning or distance games in your Street Fighter, but 3S completely wrecking the viability of a ranged zoner/poker does not add any kind of depth- in fact, entirely removing the viability of a tactic is the removal of depth, no matter how you feel about the tactic itself.

Parries didn’t add layers of strategy- they removed a lot of viable tactics because parries turned them null and void. A lot of zoning tactics, and characters that would have gotten mileage out of them (like Remy, Necro, and Oro, off the top of my head) suffered due to parries making readable moves that cover space a non-factor instead of viable pressure. Oki became extremely limited for most characters since a wake-up parry is no-risk and all reward for the guy standing back up- in fact, the blind parry in general is why the game drifted strongly to kara-throws, unblockable setups, and parry-punishment strings/setups. A reactionary parry is a high-risk, high-reward maneuver against anything but telegraphed attacks, but a anticipation parry thrown out when an attack isn’t eminently about to smash your face on a mistime is almost no risk (since parries have to cost of meter, life, or time with no animation or lag on a ‘bad’ parry attempt and can instantly be shifted to blocking/movement/attacking at no commitment) with a huge reward if the opponent unknowingly throws an attack right into it. That’s not depth- that’s parry actually limiting the depth SF3 can possibly have, since the blind parry ruins the power of anything running an offensive game that doesn’t get to trap an opponent into a difficult ‘parry or die’ scenario on reaction to that blue flash or ignore the parry all together through the power of unblockables or grabbing.

SF3 has an exceptional level of technical prowess in it- Reflector setups, reliable kara-ing, training yourself to react to split-second visual cues to save yourself/make them suffer- and I give it a lot of credit for that. But once you get past ‘oh, parry is a high-risk reactionary move’ mindset and start feeling the power of the offensive empty parrying leading to way too much damage for how safe it is and start to learn exactly how much shit doesn’t work in 3S due to the sheer existence of the mechanic, you start to see how limited 3S is as a game. Some people really like their SF in that kind of ‘zone’- up close and with a small number of working options, leading to fast-paced exchanges of prediction and reaction- and for them I’m glad they have SF3:3S to really exercise that kind of environment.

Me? Considering I usually prefer zoning and pressure tactics with flexible ways of executing them, so I kinda found 3S to be my antithesis and drifted elsewhere after spending some time with it. To each their own.

This whole topic makes me want to play a version of Third Strike where you can’t parry projectiles.


Thanks, breh.

Very nice post Seth. Funny thing is, I always knew that I disliked parries, and I knew why I disliked them, but now I realize why I prefer parry-free FGs like ST. It’s definitely cuz of the fireball, but it’s also cuz the up-close game in SF3 is limited by the parry. I much prefer the up-close game of 3-D FGs like Tekken or Soul Calibur.

Even though SF4 doesn’t have parries, the fireballs are slow and everybody has a floaty jump, making it trivial to get around fireballs. TBH, I don’t think SF4 plays like SF2 at all. If anything, the existence of Focus Attacks makes it play more like SF3 IMO, since fireballs are not as useful as in SF2.

I’ve never played Virtual On, but it’s probably like Armored Core, which is a mech 1st person 3-D game which combines FG and FPS aspects. Really cool game, and they have homing-in missiles which pretty much setup the opponent the same as fireballs. I’ve always wished that a games like that would get the popularity they deserve. I’m trying to think what 3-D FGs would be like with homing-in fireballs or assist-type gameplay. Very interesting ideas.

I see that the Saving Attack or Focus Attack are clearly a development of this ‘risk/reward’ imbalance of parrying, exactly in the same way that bringing in assists in MvC1 evolved into MvC2 through taking greater risk (the threat of damage to your ‘team’). While FAs allow you to react or predict an attack, disregard it using a FADC and attempt to carry out your own attack they do not do so with little to no risk like empty parrying in SF3.

I’d never really looked at it that way.

Excuse me, but I would like to address this, since you care about a defense stragedy so much with fireballs. Fireballs are only limited to traveling in a line, because it’s only limited by playing in a 2D system.

If they were in 3D game play, the traveling and speed needs to be updated. What I mean by that is, since 3D has a better alternative of ranges, there should be more commands of that fireball, not just limited by one direction, but also moves in different directions where the player or the CPU is going. This can be extended further to other special moves and super combos.

Yes, I do favor 3D over 2D, because I don’t like to play in a limited line nor the sillier collisions, but it never stopped me from playing them still. However, I still don’t mind having the fireballs, even though I prefer a fighting game more on the attack side. Also, I don’t mind other flashy aspects from a 2D game transferred to a 3D system.

I Just Dbl Posted, WTF?

Brilliant . Genius . Omniscient

3rd Strike Is Deep, But Alpha 3 Is Also Deep (Techs, Alpha Counter, ISM) & Yeah, I Was Playing Super Street @ A Friend’s & Realized How Annoying Street Fighter Is Without Being Able To Parry - So Many Scrubba Nubbas Spamming Them.

I, Too, Am Hoping Capcom Revives Some Sort Of Parry System, I Mean, Come On - Focus To Build Ultra Meter? Boooriiiing~

Everyone Should Listen To What I Say Because I Capitalize Every Single Word In My Sentence In Complete Disregard Of The Rules Of The English Language.

Also, if you can’t deal with the constant stream of fireballs, you suck ass anyway. You know what a random fireball is with no sense of actual attempts at proper zoning? A wide-open invitation that says “go on, make me eat something during that recovery time”.

Annoying Shoto Scrub Alert. Shoryu Is OP. U Can’t Easily Punish Hadou If They Just Shoryu Right After It.
& It’s Not That I Suck - I Slay Shotos By The Dozen With My Ninjas, It’s Just Annoying To Play… Get Some Skill, ******…Ya Know? ;]

Hilarious. I main Dan and Guile, never really liked playing as the shotos. If you honestly believe what you’re posting, you learned nothing from this article, and are a scrub who will never get any better until you ditch the attitude.


Seriously though. If you can’t punish some noob that’s spamming fireballs you are either:
A) A noob yourself
B) Lying
or C) Still a noob.

Easily Punished. Just Knowing Such Noobish ******* Exist Angers Me.


Great post TS!

I think a way to implement fireballs in 3D FG would be to make the fireball really big and cover 2 or 3 lines instead of 1.

And like you said allow different types of input to decide the direction of the fireball.

So like if you do a stick motion and hit Light Punch you get a 2 line fireball that goes straight then turns left.

Motion + Hard Punch = 2 line fireball that goes straight and turns right.

Motion + Light Kick = 3 line fireball that only goes straight

Motion + Hard Kick = 3 line straight fireball with short range that explodes early for more damage