We’ll just have to agree to disagree. You do have valid points, but obviously we are thinking differently of the game and the effectiveness of Frank.
Plus this thread is giving me cancer again.
2015 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. 7/10 First Page Tumblr: Power of snapback, Future power teams
I think the only thing levelled frank really loses to is the insane air movement of the top tiers when utilising plink dashing. However, those characters moving in the air have to be playing way more on point to avoid frank than the frank player does to be able to catch them. If you make one input error whilst moving, or he dashes underneath you and messes up an input or something youre dead. Hes basically just constantly throwing out nets that if they catch you die, but theres no risk for missing with those nets. Frank west = Swing for ever. Just like Zero.
His lvl 4/5 supers that go through everything + Zombie projectiles that are classified as character bodies so they go through everything including hypers + invincible roll make ‘hitbox flood’ easier said than done against him.
I play against Nova, Frank, Ammy regularly.
That’s like… Nova Ammy (solid), Nova Frank (instant level 4/5), Frank Ammy (Instant level 4,5), Ammy Frank (I believe Instant 4, at the very least), Anchor Ammy (capable), Anchor Nova (also capable)
Now, where the hell is the liability in this team? It doesn’t matter who you kill, it’s still solid and always capable. The weakest combination is Ammy Nova, but even then you can still play cheesy ammy with overhead assist.
You can only get Level 5 Frank with Ammy by two methods.
- Spending 4 bars and DHCing
- Using the Wine Bottle and taking a snapshot (preferred method)
You can get to minimum Level 3 off of a THC, and sometimes even Level 4 if most of the hits of Shopping Cart connect.
All Frank really needs to get to be a great character is to get to Level 3. Level 2 is mediocre, but at least you have the Roll for eliminating the factor of getting randomly Bionic Armed or something. Level 3 gives him a good bit more damage, longer combos, and even better normals. Keep in mind he can level himself up to Level 3 off of any random hits.
Level 4 just pushes him up to “Top 3” category. Fullscreen normals that do a ton of damage, build a crapload of meter, and are impossible to punish? ToDs up the butt, and a 16-frame invincibility hyper that can be canceled from his already-invincible roll? He’s got all of those.
And in Level 5, he gets a 10% damage boost I think.
The character is really good, and most of the cast can level him up, plus he has a great assist, which makes him a good support character. He’s a high-tier character, if only because of the fact that Frank Whack can be a liability. That’s what’s keeping him from jumping into A+ tier.
“Liabilities” =
shitty DHCs unless Frank is on point and Nova is alive.
Frank has to eat incoming mixups.
Ammy generally has to eat incoming mixups since she can only airdash forward.
Nova without Frank has no neutral assist for his lackluster approach
Etc.
(You asked)
Agree 100%; Zero’s the only matchup that without a doubt is against Frank (to me at least). He can do alright if they’re dumb enough to play footsies but if they stick to zoning he gets eaten free. Couple other matchups float around the 5-5 to 4-6 range but nothing as clean cut as Zero v Frank.
Making teams to optimize the point char + Frank isn’t too difficult if the point character can leverage shopping cart well and one is mindful of what else the team needs when creating it. The anchor position tends to get a bit of the shaft though I’d argue that’s typical in a lot of teams; beyond Strider and Phoenix in the back, a lot of anchors trade some form of optimization when they’re stuck by themselves, even if they’re good at it. Akuma’s a good example; perfectly proficient anchor, but he’s capable of a lot more stuff in the front. But given how well he can do by himself and his assist, nobody’ll put him there.
Wait whaaat?
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How the fuck is Dorm a liability in high level?
Dorm can sway a match back to his favor if the opponent make dumb mistakes. Just because you bodied Dorm’s point character, doesn’t really mean that the match is externally swayed to the opponent favor. I mean Dorm has pretty fast , but still damaging XF2 combos that give him enough time to kill you. If Dorm manages to kill you, and He can maintain the momentum with a incoming mixup or two. Just requires the oppotent to make retarded decisions for that to happen.
What’re you talking about?
You can do LMHS > MMHS > jumping qcf+H OTG > st.MS > MMHS > backdash THC > Photo > [lightning hits] OTG Photo and that’s a level 5.
The dude I play with (BlueLightning, the guy who made the vids a few posts above this one) pretty much came up with all the setups that duo has. I’m hopping up out of this thread, lol
@SiriusBlack: most characters have to eat incoming mixups. Vergil is one of them and he’s up somewhere in top 5. there’s always the option to block, tech, etc. And I know how hard that is in this game, but it’s not like every single incoming situation is a guaranteed hit.
Also, any DHC that sets up a lvl5 Frank isn’t shitty. Ground level Gravimetric Blasters into Frank are also good and you can set those up with the assists, I believe. Ammy’s Hyper is weaksauce.
Coldstar is usable by Nova. While not optimal, it isn’t irrelevant to mounting an approach.
lol finally, this thread is giving frank the credit he deserve.
this is what i was saying earlier plus the fact that lv1 frank is solid.
Define liability?
Phoenix Wright.
i will explain again… :rolleyes:
because dorm must played in second position but his assists are subpar.
I wouldn’t say solid, but he does indeed have the ability to land hits. He’s probably better than he should be olol.
I like Jwong’s Spencer/Vergil/Frank team because both Spencer and Vergil can use shopping cart and don’t give a damn about scaling. They can run through your entire team even without leveling up frank. Frank is just another assist character like any other character on the third position but with the option to turn to level 4/5. So for problematic characters ToD them, if the character is not problematic or you don’t have enough meter to ToD then level up Frank. I like the team because Frank is not that much of a liability.
Also who is a better third than Frank?? Other common characters to put on the third position are Hawkeye, Taskmaster, Doom, Sentinel, and Iron Man. And guess what?? They are all mediocre anchors.
For some people they would rather take their chances of getting level 4/5 Frank and Vergil Anchor than run one of those anchors.
OBJECTION! That testimony contradicts the evidence…maybe…oh fine, just give me the penalty. loses 10% health
level 1 Frank is pretty free to most characters, but it’s not as bad as, say, she-hulk. That bitch needs her slide back so bad.
I do agree with most people saying Frank is a liability. I agree with that and I mentioned that in my previous posts.
But, Vergil/Dante-a/Frank-a. Where is the liability in that team? I do not see it, if you are counting him as a “free” anchor you better count Whackbot and Dr Doom as they lose plenty of matchups in theory too but their support value brings it right back up, to get him be the free anchor that he is, you must have lost both your points. All Frank needs is one confirm from Vergil or Dante and he’s level 5 off the bat. Shopping Cart is really good for Vergil/Dante mixup wise, and Vergil gets Jam Session to derp out in neutral too.
Level 4/5 Frank is not that far off a tier from Zero/Vergil if they aren’t using their install supers, he’s just as good and very effective while providing a very good assist for your team, not to mention his mixups and normals are oppressive and very very easy to setup. As Temps said, he’s a liability on a crappy team, but on optimized teams he’s scary, and I always thought Vergil/Dante/Frank, Vergil/Frank/Dante is pretty close to end game imo.
I love frank as much as the next guy but I also think he is a liability. He is godlike if you get lvl4-5 of course but he still has matchup problems vs good zoners with better movement or good invincibility. I agree with the poster above that said frank is misleading because by the nature of gaining levels you are already at an advantage when he comes out.
In the end you HAVE to be outplaying your when things dont go your way when leveling up. Frank doesnt always help you get wins in these situations unless your opponent is not playing the matchup. The other top tier characters have the damage, mixups and dominance frank brings to the table without the chance to become a low tier character when you get randomed out.
>misses alarm for close to home tourney that fchamp is going to