You know what phoenix teams need to do to stay relevant imo. Phoenix teams are the ultimate momentum based teams. To stay relevant they need to BURN METER AND KILL CHARACTERS when they have an opportunity. The front shell should be able to TOD imo.
Does the opposing team have an anti phoenix character? Snap that fucker in and kill him. Phoenix is a nightmare anchor without level 5. You still get the headfuck factor of Phoenix if she’s getting close to level 5.
2015 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. 7/10 First Page Tumblr: Power of snapback, Future power teams
BoldNiggaBold.
phoenix requires sacrifice of meters, a neutral assist and xfactor for her optimal pay off. most of the time you need to land hits to get 5 bars
frank on an optimized team just needs the point to land a hit before dying
dark jean > lv 5 frank
blah blah, i dont see how phoenix is so much higher rated than frank… i dont think frank is S tier because he needs levels, hes at least high mid tho.
its seems like ppl arent think bout frank on an optimized team, ive seen enough nova air throw bs to not consider him getting a hit unfeasible to theory. and if thats the only char he has potential with… it doesnt (shouldnt) affect his tier placement any more than zero, viper or morrigan needing specific partners to dominate.
Yeah Bee would never put Frank in the first spot because god knows he just flat out loses a lot of matches where its not worth it. A good player swinging can get level 1 Frank to level up…but its the same as why J.Wong swinging can hit people with Iron Fist.
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I’m still vexed why people are harping on about Frank being picky in teammate selection. Isn’t the whole point of theory/team building to optimize? Same with this whole “If you don’t have a backup leveler you’re screwed.” Well then get a backup leveler. Not hard.
you never seen Bee play frank on point? cuz he does occasionally. Can’t remember which set it was but he does play point Frank every now and then
makes your shit impossible to quote and respond to.
so frank’s assist is not godlike anymore? shit, that is really news
lvl1 Frank is still way better than Iron Fist is. He has clean anti-airs, some tricky solo mixups, can combo from all of his throws, and has more ambiguous crossups with an assist. The point wasn’t that a great player can use him and be successful, the point is that lvl1 Frank has just enough if you pick your moments carefully he has the option you need to get your hit
the underlined, man I don’t give a fuck about a Frank player if they don’t have him on a real team. Pointing out “well hey man Frank sucks pretty bad if he only has Thor overhead smash assist” like that is game, set and match… LOL facepalm. the incoming mixup is a problem, yeah alright. Frank’s BFFF is Dante, if you have him in the back you will get your levels no problem. Shit if you are playing Vergil/Dante/Frank team you have a DHC option from Dante to Frank that is a level 4 on one camera shot, lvl5 if you still have your assist
All this conjecture “well you can’t put him on a random team” “you need more than one plan to make sure your Frank works” “a good Frank team is hard to come by” man these are non-arguments.
Then you bring up Vergil/Dante/Frank. That is one incredibly stacked team. A top 3 character, with a top 2 assist, and then another top 5 assist in the back for your first two characters. And your second character is top 10 no problem, and your last character when he gets his levels jumps to a magical tier even above your point character because lvl4+ Frank really is that cheap. PLUS, since it is a hard tag setup, when Vergil gets his one hit which is easy as hell when he has both jam & shopping cart, you just swapped Frank anchor for Vergil anchor. Then even if Vergil dies, you still have a double jump char who stands a slightly better chance of living on incoming. Then you have DHC tech to go from Dante to instant level 4 Frank, 5 if you still have your assist. Then you have killed somebody and set up a top tier Frank with his best friend.
Frank’s chemistry on a good team goes deep in a lot of different ways. You keep putting his power up on the same level as the Phoenixes when that is not even remotely the case. P. Wright is a gimmick, Dark Phoenix you have to get 5 bars, hope the guy hasn’t learned his anti-Phoenix technology or has no way of stealing meters, then get both your characters killed, then you finally get to go HAM. Getting Frank levels lets you put away a match early… Phoenix lets you steal it late.
The tier thread should be keeping up with the meta. People rag on RoyalFlush for his random ass zero synergy team, but now in the tier thread I suddenly gotta worry about somebody bringing up teams like that like it somehow drags down a character?
I agree Frank on teams made for him is incredibly good. The way he gains momentum and runs a train on teams through his ridiculous control of the neutral, it always reminds me of what Zero does to teams.
Thank you Temps… that is all
He’s alright, I would say high mid. He requires you to be really good though and not because he’s hard but simply because he needs someone to level him. If he didn’t have a good assist he’d be pretty shit but as it stands he’s alright. Full level Frank is very match up based still though, zero still destroys him.
What does Lvl5 Frank have that puts him on the tier of Vergil/Zero/Mags/Viper? Not snarky, just want to know.
I’ve never been a huge fan of Frank (besides how awesome he is) because of something called “win-more” in games. Winning bigger isn’t nearly as important as winning close matches or turning narrow losses into wins.
Frank West turns matches you’re winning into landslides. He is far less helpful in matches that are close, or matches where you’re losing.
I guess if you think his assist is up there with stuff like Drones or Unibeam, you can make an argument for throwing him at the end of a team. There have been plenty of successful teams running 2 good characters with an assist at the end. You can also run Point / Frank / Anchor… there have been plenty of teams setup as Point / Assist / Anchor.
The issue with justifying him on the value of his assist is that shopping cart isn’t any characters best assist to my knowledge. It’s very good, but I think there are other better ‘assist’ characters without the issues he has.
What’s the consensus on Hulk? Been trying to get someone to put in front of Dante/IronMan and he’s one of the candidates along with V.Joe, Storm, Haggar and Firebrand
In certain matchups he’s practically invincible because of massive disjointed normals and chip. Sadly they aren’t the ones vs top tier. So I would say he’s not.
Zansam broke down Frank’s tools last page I think better than I can. But I think he’s got everything you want, plus way more life than anybody else in the top 10 so you have a bigger margin of error when you have got a leveled up Frank. Like, Magneto is always on the ragged edge between murdering you and basically killing himself. Frank doesn’t have that same problem.
I can see how he’d have a bad matchup against Magneto. I think that is the only guy who poses a problem to a leveled up Frank. But again most of these top characters are likely the ones who died to give Frank his levels, so the odds of him running into a problem matchup are slim. Regardless, if they have a problem character in the back against your leveled Frank, they still have to make it through the welcome mixup and nobody has an easy answer for that.
that’s the other thing with Frank too, all these hard tag and DHC ways to level him are nice but the classic TAC way is still great. Magneto/Frank/Dante is real too
This is Marvel man. Being able to win more is the best thing you could want. Especially if you are playing in tournaments, I would kill for a “win-more” option that kicks in after my team lands one hit.
It is good enough in neutral he can justify a place on your team. This is the other reason the Phoenix comparison really bothers me. In neutral, Phoenix does nothing for you. It is just too risky to call her, and its a mediocre assist anyway. Compared to that, plus the fact Phoenix is a drain on your resources since you have to try and save meters, her and Frank are nothing alike
What are you optimizing, one character or the entire team? That’s the problem with Frank teams, it’s hard to find a Frank team that’s robust and great for all 3 characters. If you look at Bee’s team he had to play anchor Dante, which is sub-optimal, but more importantly the Spencer/Frank partnership makes Spencer’s ridiculous TOD ability rather redundant as you had to level up Frank rather than TOD at will.
But Skrull and Nova still the best due to they just have to hit you once and do a basic combo and DHC out not to mention shopping cart covers both of them really well.
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Frank’s assist is good, but it can’t single handedly save a character. Thats bullshit. If you think that, stop doing it. You will lose Frank doing shit like that. What you gonna do, call Frank and hope to god that someone isn’t doing a meaty attack on you? That will get you killed doing shit like that. I guarantee you.
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Lvl 1 Frank DOES NOT HAVE A FUCKING MIXUP. Who is telling you this? Cross-up knee is ok if you can get it. But there is no other mixup. Why do you think this? Frank at lvl 1 is damn near useless. Ask any Frank player and he’ll tell you. Ironfist got more mixups than he does and overall damage output. Lol stop.
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You failed to mention how you gonna get the hit when your point dies and you gotta block the incoming. That alone makes him scary to play second. Even if you have an optimal back character, you still have to block the mixup, and you still have to get the hit. lvl 1 Frank is fucking butt.
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I told you that Vergil/Dante/Frank is probably the best team you listed. This team has one flaw: Anchor Frank is ass. Trust me I know this shit. You taking me as a player that doesn’t know shit about my character.
Niggas saying that Frank is the best second slot when he isn’t. You gotta get the hit with your point character first off. You gotta keep your point from getting hit. This is literally how the whole match goes for Frank teams. If the point and Frank is second, you are in a world of shit. He is a risk to have on your team. You kill the point, or Frank, you lost all purpose of your team. Now you need a plan B, which is to pull it out of your ass.
I honestly feel like Vergil/Dante/Frank might be the best Frank team, simply because of the fact that you aren’t a sitting duck half the match.
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Frank and Phoenix do play different roles, however, does that stop them from being risks on your team? Does that make Frank the best second slot like niggas were saying? No. Not at all. Im sorry that you think this. Frank is as scary to play with as he is scary to play against.
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Meta-game is very important for people to keep up with. This is why I say Frank isn’t good in the middle. IMO this game is becoming 2 things: 1. TOD, do a retarded incoming mixup, rinse, repeat, and 2. Minimize your opponents options. Don’t get randomed out.
Problem one is a huge thing for Frank, because he CAN’T get out of those situations. Flat the fuck out. You gotta guess and pray to whatever god you do and don’t believe in. Problem two is bad for Frank too. A common way to minimize your opponents options is ZONING. Frank loses to ZONING.
Yes, Frank can do both of those, but he himself are extremely susceptible to those as well. Idk whether he can be a good character if he loses to the same thing he’s good at doing. Idk.
This is why Frank isn’t anywhere near a top character and he won’t be endgame. Frank is a very good character in lvl 4 and 5 but in the early stages of the game, he fails. Frank is mid tier for sure. I’ll put anything on that, but top tier or even high tier is quite a stretch.
bolded the edit to make your sentence correct. These problems aren’t unique to Frank, how do you think a drones player feels when his Sentinel has to come out? Doesn’t stop Sent from being a powerful addition to a lot of teams. You keep talking up Dorm, what happens if his Doom gets snapped and he has to play without em? ditto for Morridoom. Lose one of the chars on your team and, egads! Your whole team is suddenly not so good
yes you can be… vanilla Abel was a vortex monster who got destroyed by vortexes. Didn’t stop him from being one of the best chars in the game. Being the only guy with a good matchup vs. Sagat helped
on a real Frank team, you get the ToD into a retarded incoming mixup or at least you get your levels into a really good reset. If your mixup doesn’t work, your opponent has to jump around what I’m pretty sure is the single biggest normal in the game. A real Frank team fits both of those points perfectly well. Frank has a lot of life and doesn’t have to worry about the same stuff as Nova or Mags or Strider where one iffy conversion into a sub-optimal combo still kills them. He’s a stable option once you set him up.
I don’t care where Frank is, I care where Frank teams are. And I think Frank teams will be stickin around for a long time.
At least it’s not an argument about Zero, Viper or Wesker.
Frank needs flight mode for this game to have a proper Sent/CapCom