this is not true. Frank slide is sooo much better with a bigger anti-air hitbox and more safe.
Chrisis think FB is top tier, but put Frank in the mid mid-low tier part. I dont get that logic, because FB is only good if the team get the first hit, same for Frank. Frank assist is also very dumb, i think shopping cart is better than coldstar.
Firebrand is better than Frank. Period. Instead of providing reasons why, Iām gonna pull an SRK, and make unfounded statements.
Jam Session is only godlike for Doom when heās cornered you, itās decent in other situations but I certainly donāt think itās his best assist.
Every good (or bad) point character is only good if they get the first hit. The problem with Frank is more specific.
The problem with Frank is that he is a liability no matter where you put him on the team and the exchange for the liability is one of the best characters if you do certain things. Firebrand is not a liability if heās in the point spot and what is the main spot heās usually in**. Frank is useful in all 3 spots butā¦the difference is all 3 of his spots that he is useful in are all liabilities to the team in some way.** Which is not good for long term success IMO. If you do reach long term success with a Frank team itās still mostly revolving around the other characters or his assist and not so much Frank himself. It works because it works but itās not some godly end game shit. Just something good. Thereās a reason F.Champ never has anything uplifting to say about his Phoenix team or Phoenix in general even though he still blows people up with her.
It should be self explanatory why Frank is a liability in the 1st spot. Itās pretty much playing Dan on point. Might get the invincible DP (land a hit combo into somebody that gives you 4/5) or might just fucking die because you are garbage.
Heās a liability in the second spot because if the first character dies, you have a character coming in that againā¦is basically Dan on point and has shit for anti incoming options. At least if youāre going to have shit for incoming optionsā¦at be somebody ridiculous like Vergil or just be somebody with strong potential for clearing up the screen like Strange or Dorm so that you can do shit if you do happen to land.
Heās also a liability in the 3rd spot. Although that may be the easiest way to play him since you basically 2 characters get a chance to unlock Frank Bestā¦if they both die you have probably near the worst anchor in the game.
Firebrand at least has good assists.
firebrands normals arent exceptional but they are good, they are fast but their hitboxes arent large enough or extended away from his body to pretend like he has top 10 normals imo. his + on block standing l is pretty sick tho.
of course once hes in on that ass hes prolly gonna open you up tho.
Firebrand also has godlike runaway, when backed by Smegma Beam.
with jam he gets so much neutral control though. He actually has a legit zoning game when heās backed up with that assist and you can slowly push them towards the corner where things get really nasty. Even midscreen you can set up a Zero-esque crossup using the pushback from the last hit of jam. Its hard moving Doom into the right place but done right you come down right on their head with a addf j.M as the pushback ends - that shit is hard to block
if for some stupid reason you actually want to play point Doom Iād run doom/strange/dante or doom/dante/strange. bolts & jam is a pretty powerful combination.
shit that sounds like another awesome pair to put behind a magnetoā¦ too bad faltine loop makes no sense to my brain or my fingers
If Yipes played Magneto/Dante/Strange, Iād go nuts.
Again, i dont get why is frank a liability, since end-game teams are build thinking that you will get the first hit. If the other player get the first hit, in theory, your team is doomed, doesnt matter if you have Vergil, Doom, Dante, etc in your team because they will eat the mixup, in theory only Sentinel, Morrigan, Phoenix, have a way out.
X/Frank/X is a very good team if frank can get to level 5 from any hitconfirm, and his assist is a top 5 assist in the game, shopping cart has invincible frames, this assist is vanilla tron fused with vanilla tatsu, so even if Frank dont level up to level 5, he is not a liability for any team.
Also, your ācharacters are only good when they get the first hitā theory is false. Morrigan and Dorm are prime examples of that. Both can beat a team from chip alone.
Frank is a liability, because out of all the things in his cart, not one of them is a sword or cape.
For anyone saying that Zero is better than Lv.5 Frank, I agree, but not because āZero can kill from any mixup, anywhereā.
If your main concern is Lv. 5 Frank not doing damage from different situations, do not worry. This guy is a monster dealing damage/building meter. Hereās a copy and paste of an old post of mine. Keep in mind these combos were though out in about half hour, so I highly doubt they are optimized.
In theory your team is doomedā¦but the nice thing about this thread is that you can add reality to itā¦and in reality people will fuck up guard breaks, unblcokables, get their hard to blockables blocked etc. and Iād rather get out of a guard break or hard to blockable and have Vergil standing than Frank standing. The thread is theory based, but more so about combining the arguments of theory and realism into what could possible happen. Thatās just real shit. As a true theorist you still have to realize that real life is real life and shit goes down.
Full theory everyone can do Viperās S infinite so Viper never has to spend a meter to kill on the ground and perfectly pull off Firebrandās 300 percents every match on every touch. This thread isnāt really concerned around full theory as some people try to make it out to be. Itās mainly just what the right amount of theory can add to what people are already doing realistically.
Not sure about shopping cart having invincibility frames. Would like someone else to delve into that.
In a game where teams have 3 characters that are as cheap as Zero Vergil and Danteā¦you donāt want 1 Frank running into any of that shit ever. Thatās just a huuuuge issue. Period. No matter how good shopping cart is.
First hit is still correct. Chip and stray hits from projectiles are still āthe first hitā. Just not a combo. Thatās basically being put in a screen trap and is essentially hitting them first with your screen trap. You will most likely get hit during it any way especially from Morrigan who can turn it into rushdown and put you in a combo (like people almost never bring up). Although the issue is technically screen traps donāt immediately kill like a hit does and if they land a hit that bypasses the assist that covers the trapā¦you then take that first hit and die.
lol at shopping cart being top 5 assistā¦
First and foremost, DevilJin is absolutely right about Frank and having reservations about him. He is a liability no matter what, and there will always be risk associated with playing him. Frank players should not solely be Frank players, and should have contingency teams accordingly. Still looking for mine. That said, He still has utility in the current meta, and the risk can pay off for the investment. At least thatās my opinion or else I wouldnāt play him. Anyways, time for some knowledge bombs:
Frank VS zoning:
zoning is obviously the best solution against Frank, but fortunately he has tools besides just super jumping. Bottle can actually actually combat some horizontal zoning wars. 5 durability, 12 frame startup and a really fast speed allows Frank to keep spamming them/frame trapping opponents much like with beams if he gets it started. the unability to cancel them into anything though leaves him prone to countering with supers though, so while itās an option thereās answers. Giant Swing (where he throws the zombie) is considered a character, not a projectile. Itāll go through anything once thrown, even supers. It also leaves him at a great frame advantage when it hits an opponent at a distance. The problem is the considerable startup; nearly 30 frames. Depending on the nature of the zoning, barrel roll xx M roundhouse is also an effective punish. Barrel roll is roughly 15 frames invincible, and the momentum of it + roundhouse M covers about 3/4ths of a fully expanded screen. Fairly quick too, and the invincibility is enough to go through most beams (pretty much all but iron man), and tri shot projectiles. It wonāt be enough to go through a point + assist projectiles, but a good read means a dead zoner. Worse case he can fish with barrel roll xx survival techniques, or a shopping cart.
Against airborne zoning, his low profile/barrel roll usually means he can at least do some movement to help get into a position to use some of his options. For Morrigan/Joe Funny Face Crusher is quite effective, and like roll xx roundhouse one good read takes away your zoning problems. Jumping M at max poke range can also catch people in startup if you wait for the opportunity
at the end of the day, these are options, not counters. Frank can still run into bad spots for zoning, but when I think of the likes of say Haggar, Hulk, and other characters with poor mobility and/or projectiles Iād say Frankās doing much much better in the options department. Most zoning he can handle, but not always. It also reinforces the need for good team synergy; you should ideally have a character that can handle the zoning Frank canāt to bring in if you donāt feel heāll get the job done.
Frankās point character:
everybody loves to say you canāt kill and level Frank without TACs. Not true, but the list is short of characters who can reliably do so. Technically you can do it with every character by handing Trish or Vergil second, but I digress. Either way, the 6 that best fit the criterion are: Dante, Vergil, Nova, Skrull, Spider-man, and Spencer. and out of those, when factoring in ease of levels/kill combos, usage of shopping cart, and synergy, Iād personally say Dante Nova and Skrull are the best choices.
Frank with momentum:
Ultradavid commented when watching Apology Man play a lot about momentum. Heās absolutely right; a Frank team is always a momentum based team. This makes an inherent flaw in the team that if you donāt gain momentum, itās very hard to recover and often results in a bad spot/loss. On the other hand though, when you gain momentum, your win is very much likely. A good frank team should have this level of momentum on the first touch it gets. It should look something like this:
Point character gets touch, levels Frank.
Frank or point character kills opponentās point character on the same touch, pushes to corner.
Frank applies his mixup of choice and keeps applying pressure/doesnāt let them out of the corner, denying space or the opportunity to zone him out. Lots of oppression, especially with neutral assists to help plug the (small) holes in his corner offense.
If Frank kills the second (which heāll do to anybody off pretty much any confirm), you play loss prevention and make sure you donāt get xf3ād. If frank gets hit, if you started in 5 youāll usually survive unless they XF/TACād, you DHC him out and let him get another chance.
Let your other characters do any necessary cleanup.
So you likely win if you get first touch. But how do you that? Hereās the secret that nobody seems to get; a successful Frank team is composed so that the point character has a stronger neutral game than his opponentās the overwhelming majority of the time to increase his/her chances of first touch. You need to get started to win, so ensure that you actually do so, even if it costs you other aspects of your team. Youāve already made an investment with having Frank around, so make sure it actually pays off.
As for Frankās rank on tiers, when weāre assuming level 4/5 Iād say top 10 is easy. Top 5 you can make an argument for but I wouldnāt go that far myself. Regarding his spot on a team, second. As for comparing him to the other power up characters, Iād say heās the best; lowest barrier of entry and less ways to not give him a chance to play in some capacity. Phoenix has plenty of counters, people just are either snapping her or letting her transform instead of using tech.
Shopping Cart is not technically invincible, but itās hitbox is so amazing that it practically is.
Shopping cart isnāt invincible; Iāve seen instances of Frank being hit out of it before the cart was even rendered. Itās fast startup, fast moving, covers a lot of space with plenty of active frames and has a disjointed projectile hitbox that doesnāt clash with other projectiles. It may not be a top 5 assist, but for the role it serves itās the best in the business.
Itās also a damn good alpha counter even without invincibility. But shhhhh, thatās a secret.
its invincible. Sometimes there are hitboxes out that should hit Frank out of the assist but they dont
Stop saying āX needs momentumā. That describes everyone who isnāt Spiral Swords, EX Seismo, Bionic Arm, and Magneto.
Thereās no point in saying āIn theory, I will always get the first hit, so frank isnāt a liability.ā We might as well just conclude that everyone should die only to chip in theory because both teams would then have the benefit of the doubt in saying that in theory they will never get hit. I have no idea how people got this idea because then shuma would be A-S tier because of his ability to almost end a match off one hit in the corner. The reality is the fact that he cannot always land the first hit. Thatās not how this theory thing works.The fact that viper can do ridiculous stuff to a team once she lands a hit is only part of why she is good. She actually has the tools to consistently win. Frank is a liability no matter how you look at it because he is mediocre unless you level him up. Someone has to land the first hit. Saying it doesnāt matter how good your other characters are because you will lose off the first hit is meaningless for a multitude of reasons. If weāre just going to conclude that it doesnāt matter how good a character is because the game ends in one touch every match then we might as well close this thread because no discussion can come from that.