2012, Year of the Oil

Itabashi! Hmm, interesting to hear his thoughts, looks like he’ll just be using him as a bit part character again, which is a shame.

I agree Hakan won’t be top tier, but I don’t agree with the matchup thing. It’s amazing how many times I hear people say after I beat them, ‘‘well oh I didn’t know the matchup that’s why I lost’’…Err, it’s not as simple as that, Hakan has some more-than legit tools…yeah his defense is kinda crappy when not oiled but it will be your own fault for getting in that situation in a few days time.

What do other people think?

I’m with you, Drew, I think this whole matchup thing is a little off, not enough credit is being given to Hakan’s tools. Also, I feel Hakan has no worse than 6-4 matchups when he’s oiled up, he’s a scary bastard. Being without oil is never something you wanna deal with, so you have to keep that from ever happening. The very fact that he starts oiled up I feel makes him much more viable, even if that was his only change. I usually feel like backing up and oiling up at the beginning of the round, I can’t pull a Wildcat and just go in unoiled all the time, but without that you’re allowing the opponent to set the pace and giving them time to think.

He’s a character you really have to get a feel for, very unique, it’s not like picking up Ryu or something. You always have to be thinking with him, autopiloting with him isn’t that great, which is one of the reasons I like him so much. Yes, he won’t be top tier, but I can’t help but feel a big reason the Japanese hate on him so bad even with this new version coming up is the fact that he doesn’t have all of these favorable matchups and extremely reliable things like a vortex or an great fadc upcut -> ultra. The top players always go for the solid and reliable characters, especially in Japan. They see that Hakan’s bad without oil and brush him off as nothing more than a gimmick character, but with the ability to now stay oiled the whole round and just start your oiled offense from the get-go, well I think that’s something to acknowledge.

Fear not, my friends; for 2012 will truly be the year of the oil. Mark your calendars, things are about to get very slippery.

I might have some different insight on this considering ive been “unconventional” characters for some time …

first off i dont believe in tiers so much … it has a certain truth to it … but its not absolute … in fact … tier lists not only vary from character to character … in my opinion they vary from player to player as well … not only that … they also vary from opponent to opponent … its alot more complex than what many think …

best example was kazunokos yun tier list … now u cant base what he said on everyone because not everyone is kazunoko … and certainly not on every yun player … according to some of the top yun players … sagat and gief give them alot of trouble … on the other hand kazunoko put the juri match up as 8-2 yet when u look online … hes been battered buy juri on occasion … so its just not that simple …

but we have to face reality here … hakan … well … let me try and put this in better perspective…
a character is considered good or not based on the tools he has … and there are common things all characters evaluated by … so here goes:

strenght and vitality:
one of the best thing about hakan ( as opposed to the other characters i use … juri and dhalsim) … is that he can take a beating … and still be at a managable health … which is something great considering what he lacks in other areas …

wakeup options:
technicly people evaluate this by seeing if a character has an invincible move to projectiles, throw, or normals …or all three… and weather that move is safe or can be made safe … the start up frames of the move also plays a major role… as well as its EX meter price … now lets look at a few characters in that aspect and compare them with hakan…

(this is ofcourse excluding the common factors such as focus, backdash, jumps, supers and ultras)

  • ryu’s shoryuken: invincible on wakeup, anti everything except projectiles (but EX also anti projectile), 3 frame start up so you cant safe jump him, and can be FADCed on block so its safe … theoreticly … that is the best type of wake up in the game because it coveres everything …
  • sagat uppercut: almost as good with the exception that it has a 5 frame startup meaning you can safe jump him … so good but not great
  • dhalsims back teleport: serves all purposes but can be easily option selected, has long recovery, plus is worthless in the corner… (another thing to consider)
  • juri’s pinwheel: it costs 1 EX meter to be invincible to attacks and projectiles, but still vulnerable to throws on the first frames… it also has a slow start up easily safejumped, it can be FADCed but at the cost of 2 more EX bars … and 3 EXes is a huge price to pay…plus it has rediculous recovery (-14 on block)

on the otherhand … lets look at
hakan’s rocket : needs EX to be invincible on startup to normals,
all versions of rocket are invincible to throws however without oil the range is so poor that it tends to lose,it can also be baited out by neutral jump or a delayed jump, yes it swallows normal safe jump attempts but why would u ? it cannot be cancled, it doesnt catch moves that are airbourne ( such as juri’s cl.MK which is in the air for the 1st 6 frames), tends to whiff alot without oil … needs oil to have a decent range …

you can see how hakan is at a disadvantage here …

anti-airs (or dealing with air attacks):
this is evaluated by : hitboxes, startups, damage, invincibility, tradablity, and avoidance options…
lets face it … hakans normals in this area cannot be compared to comething like sakura’s cr.HP or juri’s cr.MP or dhalsim’s b.HK …
although the hitbox on hakans st.HP is great lets face it … the startup is extremely slow … you need to almost predict the jump before sticking it out …
you can argue that >+LP is good but it trades alot plus it doesnt hurt

but looking at hakans mechanics as a whole u face other factors
cr.HP and >+MP make jumpins whiff if timed right… now yes that isnt a punish but it is great to have … the downside is it can be option selected
his coward crouch is another way to whiff stuff but that has recovery …so you will almost certainly be hit after …
oil slide is a great way to run away, not many option selects get it in time … however … dive kicks stuff it … (and we have alot of divers in this game) not to mention some dumb moves like vegas j.MP and i think its blankas mk or hk im not sure …

the only truely amazing antiair hakan has is ultra 2 … 0 startup and alot of damage … but for some stupid reason i cannot explain … it doesnt seem to beat zangiefs ultra 2 … LOL

on the other hand if you have oil … u get one more option … FADNC … and honestly thats one of the most scariest pnishes to jumpins when mastered… just watchout for t.hawks condor dives,juri’s divekicks and akumas demon flip palm or throw (armor breaker hell)

weather faster startup on dives in 2012 will makethem more viable antiairs or not is yet to be seen…

options after knockdown “offense”:
the way i like to evaluate this is by: the presense of a fireball, ambiguous crossup option, safe jump option, option selects, safe meaty attacks, fuzzy guard option, punishing back dash, and punishing reversals …add to that true strings and frame traps for momentum…

my personal view on this is … apart from projectiles… and the matchup dependant safejump option … everything else is 50/50 and cant be judged by the character alone but rather by the matchup hes facing as well …

although hakan has to be my first “NON-projectile” characacter … i came to realize that this is where he excels the most … but still everything he does is a huge risk … now alot of what im about to say is based on AE knowledge but ver.2012 will improve hakan greately in this aspect …

hakan currently has no useful true strings apart from cr.LK string on oil … meaning … he technicly cant trick you with the occasional frame trap as freely as other characters unless hes oiled … this however will be the biggest game changer with a +4 st.LP now … although this is good , the move is not cancelable intop itself and the timing will be tight but still doable… its still alot more limited than other characters with multiple true strings (like cammy, rose, and “fuck long”) but with this new ability he will do a better at punishing jumps, many more reversals, even throw attempts …

hakan also has great setups for meaty slide … which in many occations the only true escape would be backdash which can be punished by a rocket …
some characters (like gen’s MK and HK up kicks) would have their reversal completely whiff … making the threat more deadly

in addition he has some of the nastiest fuzzy guard setups … however the punishability after backdash or back teleport is extremely high (personally i was hoping the recovery would be faster in 2012 … but there was no mention of any change on that so oh well) the downside is … they dont work on : cammy, dhalsim , hakan, yun, yang, honda or blanka… weather the new hitbox will change that or not is still to be determined …

the downside is that both the meaty slides and the fuzzy dives can both be punished usually by the same reversal … (example: ryu… SHORYUKEN !! .com ) …

but thats where the mind game comes in … and thats where the player specific tiers come in (in my opinion)

also i have to hand it to the community for digging deep into his knockdown options by implementing the ambiguous crossup HK setups and his safe jumps… great for whiffing reversals and further limiting the opponents options …

the one problem hakan has is if he was in the offense and the opponent decided to play the defensive card with a health advantage … its just not easy to get in with the big red lobster without taking a risk …but the same can be said about every character … its just harder for hakan though …

zoning:
this is basicly dependant on 3 things in my opinion: far range normals, projectiles, and safe specials (including teleports)

hakan has no fireball…
his normals are decent enough to keep a 2 big square distance most of the time … which is good …
but with a nerfed cr.HP (-3 on hit ) im afraid that will be slightly hurt … but considering his offensive game is greatly improved that might not be a big problem

on the other hand … his specials arent that great for keeping distance … however i feel the improved jumpability of his MK and HK dives will play a new role in this …( for example … a string into them … and if they crouch ur safe on the other side … something to think about … im a dhalsim main … i like to run away lol)

command grabs:
this is looked at from startup, invincibility to normals and/or throws
this goes without saying considering hakan is a grapple based character to a degree (i think hes more oil based … doesnt dissolve in water :stuck_out_tongue: … but you get what i mean)…
the fact that his rocket is a 3 framer makes it less viable than gief or t.hawk’s 2 frame spds … that 1 frame just makes a whole lot of difference …

although his rocket is throw invincible … the range without oil tends to make it lose to many other throws … and without oil … lets face it … the range is crap
EX is also invinsible to normals

now with oil …
the rocket range becomes huge … making it one of hakans deadliest tools … especially with all the possoble followups after the knockdown…

adding to that… EX oil dive becomes invinsible to throws when oiled … (something to consider)
when u compare it with some bullshit like abels tornado throw … yes its slower but the range makes it a mean tool … same for yun, yang, feilong and any other idiot with a command grab apart from hakan (oil less)

**projectiles (having them and dealing with them): **

well we know hakan has no projectiles …(although i always wished he could squirt oil on the floor like subzeros ice trap n make people slip and fall … wouldnt that be sick ? :P)

he has a few ways to get through them …
dive cancled into Coward crouch is a great tool for building meter and intimidating the opponent
lp slider goes through most projectiles… and EX slider goes through all … EX with oil is the best anti projectile zoning move in the game … period … ( even better than cammy’s EX drill imo)

hakans jump is retarded … alot of times things tend to hit him because of it but on the other hand its good in a sense that the opponent has to calculate their options slightly differently because of it …

the problem is … oiling is alot harder with fireballs … especially without EX meter (EX oil is projectile invincible) …
EX oil into coward crouch is also a great thing to turn the tides …

overheads:
nope

dive kicks:
nope
teleports:
nope

**character specific mechanics: **
basicly looking at something unique to the characters core style that is uncomparable with the rest of the cast like:

  • dhalsims long range limbs
  • juris multi fireball mechanic
  • abels roll
  • goukens counters
  • gens stance changes (which change his walk speed and jump arc as well for people who didnt know)

well hakan has oil …
and alot of people can consider oil a game breaking mechanic … to a degree …
with oil:

  • u can technicly combo from a lvl 1 FA … no other character can do this …
  • u have damage buffs to all your moves
  • your throw range increases …
  • your dash and backdash are just beastly … add to that sliding into coward crouch … god knows how thats gonna work … lol (still think it might just be a gimmick but we’ll have to wait and see) … plus i hear his backdash is better even … i wonder … (although the increased distance might mess up some oil dive setups … just an after thought)
  • he is the only character that can FADNC … which is just fricken beautiful …
  • you get a true string cancelable normal cr.LK

basicly its like playing with another character altogether…
and considering you will start this way in ver.2012 for a good 10 seconds will make him a beast … unlike before where u had to cower away to get a little bit of oil and have your momentum …

the only downside to oil … is … well its limited to time …
and again … this goes back to character skill maintain his oil status and opponent knowledge to prevent it …
you just simply cant use hakan like any other character … and thats probably what puts alot of people off of him …

ease of excecution:
ok i have to say … hakan … is just … NOT EASY TO USE AT ALL …
he may have all these nice tools on paper … but come to the practical sense … you will come to realize that …

almost everything is rediculously frame dependant (meaty slides and fuzzy rockets for example) … sometimes being one frame short can cost u a whole lot of health … and its hard to bring it back with hakan if the opponent takes the defensive approach…

alot of times you will get your rockets instead of slides and your showers instead of dives … it gets stupid at points … its rare and the more you use him the less it happens but it just goes to show how hard it is to be on point with him …

you just cant compare his combos to something silly like ryus uppercut FADC ultra for example … with hakan its just alot more technical ( and gimmicky ) than that … and thats another reason why people are put off by him …

not to mention your occasional setup that would fail just because you lost your oil at that one last frame … making your oil rocket back to shit range again …
or losing oil when spamming cr.LK just to realize that its gone and u get hit with a reversal … it just hurts man …


so bottom line is … weather hakan is at the bottom of the tier list or not … it doesnt mean hes bad … it just means he might be slightly harder to use…

when u look at how this game works … and when u look at it on a matchup to matchup basis … the differences become extremely subtle …
also … with the general rebalancing … its safe to say that although the character tools will be a major factor in determining the outcome … it wont be as horrid as AE where yun, yang seth and feilong just had it too good over every everyone else … and hopefully in ver 2012. character skill, and matchup knowledge will play a far bigger role.

damn look at the time … lol
i hope this was insightful …

^ Nice read. Think you meant f.lp not f.lk as an anti-air. Also, what’s this about Hakan’s backdash being better? Distance or frames?

yeah lol … theres just too many mistakes there … i edited what i could … lol…

about the backdash … i heard samurai drew mention that his backdash will have further range in 2012 in his last vid … and it just got me thinking that if that were true then the backdash into dive or slide setups might change … plus u need to consider how many frames longer is it …

hakan has a throw invincible special… well but like i told it he will not get upper tier with this changes im just hoping for a “all around” playable charakter not strong but neigther weak… and maybe he is that now i can imagin choosing Hakan and Giefi think the two make a great team since i consider hakan as WEAK BUT he hase no WOERSE matchups i didnt even notice ANY 7:3 matchups so faar… did you guys notice any BAD BAB BAD matchups?

Oh right, sorry for the confusion I just meant extra distance by backdashing into Coward Crouch! Will test tomorrow! Anyone know what time the update might hit?

And yeah Hakans grabs get thrown out when he’s not oiled, but that’s when he’s, not oiled. 2012 is all about the oil, and staying that way, and I guess that will be where the skill comes in. Oil followup should be used more frequently also!

Remember how good Hakan is when oiled, he’s one scary beast.

dont make falsestatements his throws will althou loose in closerange OILED…

I’ve been playing Hakan for a good while and I’ve never been thrown out of his Oiled Rockets, and even if it was the case the times it happens must be rare, so whatever, moot point.

just dont make false statement if you know it better the gamemechanik tells no lies and your wrong statements is a point for false information :wink:
he hase a throwincinble special --> EX-DDT (Oiled) and all his throws can be thrown

EXCEPT for his Ultra there im not sure i think its not possible

Well after just testing it out, there’s something definitely buggy going on. Half of the time it wins out, and half of the time it loses. Hmm.

Well anyway, the reason I haven’t seen this is because I never feel like spamming Oil Rockets under pressure or on wakeup, only EX as a last ditch get off me move. It’s kind of like Abel doing a wakeup normal tornado throw, rarely ever happens. There’s a million more options than spamming oil rocket on wakeup.

Hakans SPD is amazing when oiled, the range is ridiculous, it’s easy to tick into. You guys are so negative sometimes it’s unreal, give the move some credit, it’s positives outweigh the negatives…negatives which I’ve never come across, how good do you seriously want this move to be? Seriously!? (Har)

Can we focus on the 2012 changes now, the topic is getting derailed and I’d rather not have this turn into a buggy game mechanics discussion, there’s a lot more important points to talk about.

Also Emperor Cow, thanks for taking the time to write that up, was an interesting read!

yeah back to toppic (besides i never sayed its a bad move te range is funfuckingtastic but well its not grab imun and loos to all moves that are like Abels TT and thats something a hakan player needs to know not more not less :slight_smile: besides a grab on wakeup is a VALID move when you never done it in a Fight your oppoent will mostlikely crouchjabbing SO DO IT!

i think in AE 2012 we will get a MIdTIER Hakan and if thats for REAL it would be awsome… i never want more then Hakan beeing as valid as Blanka/Able/Rufus… but im not sure he will reach that level i assume he still needs more work and hase some situations without answers

Actually, I kind of like Hakan’s spd being 3 frames. Not too slow and feeels more natural when I cross under oil rocket. Tried that with Gief and I occasionally whiff his spd because they haven’t touched the ground yet. But that’s just me. About the buggy oil rocket, I had always thought it might had something to do with how his oil rocket works. It doesn’t actually have a big grab box, heck its probably quite a bit smaller than Gief’s hp spd. Hakan just moves forward really fast during that 3 frames, kinda like a teleport (which is why he moves forward somewhat when we whiff his grab oily). So perhaps the reason why we sometimes don’t get grab when oiled is because Hakan hasn’t moved up to their grab range. That’s what I think anyway.

For the 2012 changes, the thing with the oil dives having an extended lower grab boxes. You guys think its something like grabbing Cody during his picking up knife/rock animation? Or Juri’s low fireball animation?

Oh, and on a non-related 2012 change, have you guys ever gotten crossup by Yun’s lunge punch? Played with my friend the today, I did a diagonal j.hk over his lunge punch, but still got hit at the back. Its like the back of his hitbox connected with the back of my hurtbox.

FYI:

hakans hitbox is somewhat trange on ground MANY moves can cross him up that wont on the other chars… like hakans.HK it crossups naturly on hakan

Yeah I know his hurtbox is huge and strange, but I didn’t realize it was that bad.

I can also confirm that oiled rocket lose to normal grab. Got grabbed by kara-throw couple times. I am mashing rocket when i fight with people who like to jab and throw me.

MK super being unthrowable and both supers and ultra being unthrowable is a no brainer and we all know that …
but those are 1 off chances …
im talking about a constant unthrowable mid match option …

test this:

record your opponent doing an untechable knockdown into a meaty “normal” throw on your wakeup…
you cannot wakeup rocket … (of any kind … to my knowledge ) … to make sure you did this correctly you should get the “REVERSAL” message
if this is wrong pls correct me …

TESTED: (edit)

ok i stand corrected … drew you’re right …
all versions of rocket are unthrowable … including EX … O_O

i guess the reason i never felt that worked was because of the “non oil” range and as you said …

ok for me that changes things ! … this is good to know … i used to feel so limited on wakeup …

if everyone doesnt mind i will edit the big writeup … lol

i never told rocket is throw imune that was drew… and im staated like you can read in your owne thread that EX-DDT -->(oiled) is throw invincible and thats true and is a valid option

what is DDT?

360+k